2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I LOVE Joubert's program. Hope he uses it for the Olympics. I do agree with this 4th place finish here, though. The technical content just wasn't there today. No Quad, one Triple Axel, and a lack of combinations...
 

Ice Diva

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Men's Long program musings:

Mura: Haven't seen him before - liked his program - the Japanese men have great skating technique.

Abbott: Beautiful program - love everything about his lyrical skating & artistry. Too bad he suffers from nerves or whatever in competition. Still, an improvement - 2nd is great. Like how he fought all the way through for his jumps.

Amodio: Not impressed with the structure of his program; lots of "stationery" and two-footed skating with the second half of his program all jumps. He does have a dance background but all I saw was flailing arms & not much artistry.

Joubert: He's an icon of his era but he is just so 6.0 -- a bygone era that will not return. I know he's a great jumper but once his jumps go there's no discernible choreography to hold the program together.

Song: Pleasantly surprised - with a well constructed program & connection to the music. Room for improvement of course but lots of potential.

Verner: Too bad. He used to be so much fun to watch - though he was going places.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I LOVE Joubert's program. Hope he uses it for the Olympics. I do agree with this 4th place finish here, though. The technical content just wasn't there today. No Quad, one Triple Axel, and a lack of combinations...
:confused: Joubert did three combinations (one being the 3S-2A sequence), though it's true none was with a 3T and no three jump combination (I generally dislike those; the final jump tends to look like an afterthought). I hope once his health and conditioning improve, he can up the technical ante and better present the program, which I feel has a lot of potential. He has already said it will be his last LP, so he is keeping it for next year. Also that it's quite challenging and he's not sure he'll be able to get it right this season.

Not in response to you, but I am just at a loss as to how anyone can look at Joubert's LP and say it's a rehash of his past stuff or an empty 6.0 program. It's as though people are so conditioned to think of Joubert's skating that way that they aren't receptive to consider evidence to the contrary (rather like "Kozuka always looks down and doesn't relate to the audience" or "Kostner wins with messy/empty skates" regardless of what they actually do). I am really happy to see some more positive responses alongside the usual stuff.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Exactly what SkateFiguring said. He doesn't need to perform a 3T after the 3F. In fact, if he were to play it safe, he can just do a 2A+2A sequence in the back half of the program to get 6 points instead of the 4 points for the 3T. Or he can drop the 3T to do a 3F+2A+SEQ or 3F+2T+2L combo for close to 7-8 points in the back half.

I think there was a misunderstanding of my post. What I was trying to say is that a skater who does not have a quad faces difficulty in cobbling together a jump layout that is competitive with a skater that does have one.

Abbott cannot simply "add" a 3F+2A SEQ or a 3F+2T+2Lo combo because he already has a flip jump in his program, together with two 3As and two 3Lz's. If he dropped the first 3F+2T and put in a 3F+2T+3Lo instead he would net only the extra 2Lo. Yes, he could backload the program (stamina permitting), but that doesn't solve the Zayak problems. If you try writing down all 8 jumping passes, the difficulty becomes apparent.

3A, 3A+2T, 3Lz, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3Lo, 3S, 8th pass?

If you want to repeat your two highest-scoring jumps, the triple Axel and the triple Lutz, that automatically uses up two of your three combos/sequences. You only have one left. You could cut the flip combo back to a solo flip and do 2A+2A SEQ for the 8th pass. But this actually loses 1.12 in base value.

Or you do solo flip then try something like 3Lo + 1/2 Lo + 3S. Now you have two extra passes. But you have to fill them with is 2A and another 2A.

This is the same reason why skaters don't try triple-triple-triple combos. Big points for that one pass, but you give them back when you run out of legal triples at the end.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Joubert has a lovely long program this season. It is not a 6.0 program by any means and a lot of thought and work went to it. Granted, it is not the usual paint by numbers stuff we see so often these days, nor did he perform it as well as he could have today - not surprising, given how sick he was earlier this month and the subsequent loss of training time and stamina. As I wrote earlier, both Joubert and Nan Song are to be commended for even competing this weekend, and both skated fairly well considering what they went through. If Joubert ever does skate the LP well, he will deserve considerably higher PCS than he received today.

Look, there are skaters I don't like much, either (e.g. V/T, D/W). But at least I go to the trouble of watching them skate before pronouncing judgment, and I try to acknowledge their strengths and not just go on about their perceived weaknesses.

glam is correct to point out that Amodio's program is problematic in terms of construction. Go pick on him, considering that he won the LP and medalled, two things that should not have happened.

Actually I watched Joubert´s freeskate twice, once from live streaming and the second time from tv. It looks a 6.0 programme to me, with a very simple basic choreography which gave him possibilities to do his jumps . And I was not that much impressed by his footwork either.
 
Last edited:

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I see you chose to address a specific point I made, but it kind of proves what I was saying yesterday: every program Joubert does or has done seems to elicit the same reaction from you; you repeat "he was overscored on PCS, he has 6.0 programs". This, regardless of the PCS he receives (it wasn't high yesterday by any means) and regardless of the program content. There are never any positives. Would you be able to say something nice about him or Plushenko on this thread?

Since you say you do watch Joubert skate, I can't help but wonder if you do so with certain preconceptions as to what his skating and programs are like, and are unwilling or unable to consider the possibility that these do not always apply. Or maybe you like a very specific range of programs, where you can see each bullet point being checked off. I honestly don't know, but whatever works for you; it is just skating, after all, and there's a limit to how much cognitive effort any of us will be willing to put into it. It's hard for me to deal with my own confirmation bias at times, too.

It would be nice, however, if you at least varied your comments on occasion to liven things up a bit.
 

verte76

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
I've watched this stuff on Eurosport before, when I had speakers in my computer. Now I don't. Phooey!
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
how can you not be taken with this? How can your heart not be lifted? – though don’t tell me if yours isn’t, I might cry
Please don't cry. I was not impressed by that "international" performance. It is understandable that each singer would not get an equal share, but why were longer phrases all sung by ones whose native language is English? Why were most prominent positions (e.g., beginning and the end) all occupied by them as well? What on earth did that Japanese guy hide in the midst of an all-white fraternity? The inequality could have been easily justified had they all sung in English. But they didn't. They sang in their native tongue. The fact that English is the lingua franca has been reflected by the greater number of English-speaking singers. It is not necessary to further give them more important roles.

Had it started with the French (Les Misérables is a French novel after all) and ended with the Japanese, the message conveyed through that performance would have been totally different, that is, the cultural spread from French to various cultures, even to Japanese, the least expected candidate.

Anyway, I didn't get a good feeling after watching that performance, another ethnocentric performance that they called "international"--that's what I thought.
 
Last edited:

aemeraldrainc

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Please don't cry. I was not impressed by that "international" performance. It is understandable that each singer would not get an equal share, but why were longer phrases all sung by ones whose native language is English? Why were most prominent positions (e.g., beginning and the end) all occupied by them as well? What on earth did that Japanese guy hide in the midst of an all-white fraternity? The inequality could have been easily justified had they all sung in English. But they didn't. They sang in their native tongue. The fact that English is the lingua franca has been reflected by the greater number of English-speaking singers. It is not necessary to further give them more important roles.

Had it started with the French (Les Misérables is a French novel after all) and ended with the Japanese, the message conveyed through that performance would have been totally different, that is, the cultural spread from French to various cultures, even to Japanese, the least expected candidate.

Anyway, I didn't get a good feeling after watching that performance, another ethnocentric performance that they called "international"--that's what I thought.

Yeah. And where was the Spanish guy? Are there no Spanish-speaking Les Miserables productions? hehehe.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Buttercup, my oops! I'll make up for it with a massive PM.

skatinginbc, that's a fair comment to make (though frankly, the Japanese guy would be in the midst of whiteness wherever he was placed). I could've linked to "One Day More" to make my point (or indeed, "Bring Him Home") that the power of the music comes mainly from the voices.
 

lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
I was surprised that my favorite program of this event is Joubert’s program. I did not like his programs at all last season, but I like his Inception program. I know it doesn’t have as many transitions as the programs of Patrick, Takahashi, Yuzru etc., but it’s still a COP program. I like the music and Joubert’s interpretation. I actually think it’s more enjoyable than Jeremy’s Bring Him Home LP, which is also a good program. I wish both Jeremy and Joubert will skate well next time.

Congratulations to Amodio and Mura. I don’t really like their programs, but they skated well here, and they have good basics.
 

StereoLove

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Finally watched Brian's Lp. I feel that he was trying to give more energy than he had. The whole time, I was thinking he needed rest.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Buttercup, my oops! I'll make up for it with a massive PM.
This is an acceptable proposal ;)

Finally watched Brian's Lp. I feel that he was trying to give more energy than he had. The whole time, I was thinking he needed rest.
Yes, Joubert definitely looked pretty exhausted, and he knew that physically the LP would be tough - said so in the post-SP press conference, too. He'd only been back on the ice for three-four days before TEB, and had lost a fair bit of weight (and presumably, energy/stamina) while he was ill.
 

DannyCurry

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Actually I watched Joubert´s freeskate twice, once from live streaming and the second time from tv. It looks a 6.0 programme to me, with a very simple basic choreography which gave him possibilities to do his jumps . And I was not that much impressed by his footwork either.

I only watched his LP live at Bercy and that'll be enough because Joubert isn't a skater I appreciate but the feeling I had is that it indeed looked like a programme for a 6.0 skater barely trying to meet the CoP standards. I don't care if this is a wrong impression, I just won't bother watching that performance again (yes, I'm a silly poster, as FlattFan dubbed me). Anyway, he's not the only one who's lacking transitions (and on a side note, I overall preferred the 6.0 programs to today's constant blade-grabbing and ugly positions rewarding).

Never been a fan of Joubert's footwork, either in the 6.0 era or now. But good for him if he still enjoys competing.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I see you chose to address a specific point I made, but it kind of proves what I was saying yesterday: every program Joubert does or has done seems to elicit the same reaction from you; you repeat "he was overscored on PCS, he has 6.0 programs". This, regardless of the PCS he receives (it wasn't high yesterday by any means) and regardless of the program content. There are never any positives.

Yes, it is true that I keep mentioning the above, but that is the exact impression I have gotten from his programmes. And in my opinion 6.79 for his "transitions" and 7.36 for choreography are still high.
 
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Yes, it is true that I keep mentioning the above, but that is the exact impression I have gotten from his programmes. And in my opinion 6.79 for his "transitions" and 7.36 for choreography are still high.
Then Hanyu, Takahashi and Amodio LP scores are also waaaaaaaaay too high (just the first three coming up to my mind).
Takahashi has almost no transitions either this year, the same for Hanyu, he just run from one element to another (don't talk about interpretation because there's no).
In fact, most of the men LP are overscored if Joubert's is (from what I've seen).
But I overall agree with you, Joubert is overscored, although for me he's just not the worst of all this year and his scores are nowhere near what it used to be for even emptier programs. Just watch Amodio's LP and cry. I didn't know mohawks are transitions.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Then Hanyu, Takahashi and Amodio LP scores are also waaaaaaaaay too high (just the first three coming up to my mind).
Takahashi has almost no transitions either this year, the same for Hanyu, he just run from one element to another (don't talk about interpretation because there's no).
In fact, most of the men LP are overscored if Joubert's is (from what I've seen).
But I overall agree with you, Joubert is overscored, although for me he's just not the worst of all this year and his scores are nowhere near what it used to be for even emptier programs. Just watch Amodio's LP and cry. I didn't know mohawks are transitions.

Just wondering....have you actually watched Takahashi's and Hanyu's programs this year? Because saying that these two skaters have "almost no transitions" is so categorically false I don't even know where to start (particularly when it comes to Hanyu whose programs have a lot of content--Takahashi I think needs more in the first minute of his LP when he sets up for his quads).
 
Top