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Thread: 2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

  1. #136
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosacotton
    Since the series began, always at least one skater has won two of the events. So history would be made if Hanyu or Takahashi win NHK!

  2. #137
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    I'm very happy for Mura and wanted Joubert to be in 3rd, but congratulations to all the medalists!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The problem is that the Zayak rules prevent a skater from using this strategy. If you don't do a quad, then you can't take advantage of all your jumping passes.

    Suppose Jeremy follows your advice. He leaves out the quad and changes his 3F+2T to a 3F+3T. Now his program is

    3Lz
    3F+3T
    3A
    3A+2T
    3Lz+3T
    3Lo
    3S

    He has already violated the Zayak rules by repeating 3A, 3Lz, and 3T, and he still has one more jumping pass to fill with nothing but a 2A available.

    The rules make it tough on a skater who doesn't have a quad.
    Exactly what SkateFiguring said. He doesn't need to perform a 3T after the 3F. In fact, if he were to play it safe, he can just do a 2A+2A sequence in the back half of the program to get 6 points instead of the 4 points for the 3T. Or he can drop the 3T to do a 3F+2A+SEQ or 3F+2T+2L combo for close to 7-8 points in the back half.

  4. #139
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Jeremy Abbott: Buttercup mentioned he was surprised at the adulation for this program. As someone who was not taken by Muse or Life is Beautiful at all, I have to admit I’m surprised I love this program as much as I do. I’m taken with this program mainly because he manages to connect so strongly with the soulful power of this music. Les Miserables needs the human voice. The power comes from a huge cast singing these anthemic power songs (I mean, how can you not be taken with this? How can your heart not be lifted? – though don’t tell me if yours isn’t, I might cry). You don’t need the words per se as much as the voice. But Abbott, somehow, makes it work. His long limbed fluidity is really a beautiful match to this musical entreaty. The way the first triple axel works with the music is mesmerizing. The only aesthetic flaw in this program was his hair, in my mind. And that’s a stupid comment for me to make, I know, aftershocks. I really do hope he skates this perfectly once this season. Preferably at Worlds.
    As you know, I'm a she, not a he Maybe the program will grow on me?

    Brian Joubert: Joubert was robbed at TEB. I will never utter those words again, because it is a freak occurrence (plus, he likely only has one more TEB. Whoa. The retirements after Sochi are really gonna be huge). I hope he skate this program to its potential because it could be a career best LP for him (I won’t even mind if he keeps it for two years, likely going to be necessary imo). I think his PCS was largely fair (and given how many gifts he’s received in the past, it’s hard to say he was undermarked), but it was Amodio’s overmaking that was his undoing.
    I was so hoping you'd like it! And I do think he was bit undermarked on PCS, though not by too much, it was not a good performance; he was visibly tired pretty much the entire way through. Amodio's overmarking, in both parts of the competition, worries me, as it is likely to continue - which means that 1. nothing will push Amodio to get good programs and 2. you might have to utter those words again, and more than once :(

  5. #140
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    Machida didnt do any quads this season and he has done fine Abbott pops a lot of jumps and was supremely hurt by his axel pops. His pcs should more than compensate for failing on a quad jump but he doubles and single things and his spins are great they are just no cop level 4 so Abbott really needs to work on ugly spins which is what ijs requires - well some people can make them loom good sometimes but they can be really long and boring things that destroy the spins. But no pops and level 4 spins even with quad failure.

    I would like some people to do 6.0 programs and have elements be called invalid or b level spins or violate rules on jumps so people can get a feel for 6.0 again.
    Last edited by gmyers; 11-18-2012 at 01:10 AM.

  6. #141
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I LOVE Joubert's program. Hope he uses it for the Olympics. I do agree with this 4th place finish here, though. The technical content just wasn't there today. No Quad, one Triple Axel, and a lack of combinations...

  7. #142
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    Men's Long program musings:

    Mura: Haven't seen him before - liked his program - the Japanese men have great skating technique.

    Abbott: Beautiful program - love everything about his lyrical skating & artistry. Too bad he suffers from nerves or whatever in competition. Still, an improvement - 2nd is great. Like how he fought all the way through for his jumps.

    Amodio: Not impressed with the structure of his program; lots of "stationery" and two-footed skating with the second half of his program all jumps. He does have a dance background but all I saw was flailing arms & not much artistry.

    Joubert: He's an icon of his era but he is just so 6.0 -- a bygone era that will not return. I know he's a great jumper but once his jumps go there's no discernible choreography to hold the program together.

    Song: Pleasantly surprised - with a well constructed program & connection to the music. Room for improvement of course but lots of potential.

    Verner: Too bad. He used to be so much fun to watch - though he was going places.

  8. #143
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I LOVE Joubert's program. Hope he uses it for the Olympics. I do agree with this 4th place finish here, though. The technical content just wasn't there today. No Quad, one Triple Axel, and a lack of combinations...
    Joubert did three combinations (one being the 3S-2A sequence), though it's true none was with a 3T and no three jump combination (I generally dislike those; the final jump tends to look like an afterthought). I hope once his health and conditioning improve, he can up the technical ante and better present the program, which I feel has a lot of potential. He has already said it will be his last LP, so he is keeping it for next year. Also that it's quite challenging and he's not sure he'll be able to get it right this season.

    Not in response to you, but I am just at a loss as to how anyone can look at Joubert's LP and say it's a rehash of his past stuff or an empty 6.0 program. It's as though people are so conditioned to think of Joubert's skating that way that they aren't receptive to consider evidence to the contrary (rather like "Kozuka always looks down and doesn't relate to the audience" or "Kostner wins with messy/empty skates" regardless of what they actually do). I am really happy to see some more positive responses alongside the usual stuff.

  9. #144
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    Exactly what SkateFiguring said. He doesn't need to perform a 3T after the 3F. In fact, if he were to play it safe, he can just do a 2A+2A sequence in the back half of the program to get 6 points instead of the 4 points for the 3T. Or he can drop the 3T to do a 3F+2A+SEQ or 3F+2T+2L combo for close to 7-8 points in the back half.
    I think there was a misunderstanding of my post. What I was trying to say is that a skater who does not have a quad faces difficulty in cobbling together a jump layout that is competitive with a skater that does have one.

    Abbott cannot simply "add" a 3F+2A SEQ or a 3F+2T+2Lo combo because he already has a flip jump in his program, together with two 3As and two 3Lz's. If he dropped the first 3F+2T and put in a 3F+2T+3Lo instead he would net only the extra 2Lo. Yes, he could backload the program (stamina permitting), but that doesn't solve the Zayak problems. If you try writing down all 8 jumping passes, the difficulty becomes apparent.

    3A, 3A+2T, 3Lz, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3Lo, 3S, 8th pass?

    If you want to repeat your two highest-scoring jumps, the triple Axel and the triple Lutz, that automatically uses up two of your three combos/sequences. You only have one left. You could cut the flip combo back to a solo flip and do 2A+2A SEQ for the 8th pass. But this actually loses 1.12 in base value.

    Or you do solo flip then try something like 3Lo + 1/2 Lo + 3S. Now you have two extra passes. But you have to fill them with is 2A and another 2A.

    This is the same reason why skaters don't try triple-triple-triple combos. Big points for that one pass, but you give them back when you run out of legal triples at the end.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joubert has a lovely long program this season. It is not a 6.0 program by any means and a lot of thought and work went to it. Granted, it is not the usual paint by numbers stuff we see so often these days, nor did he perform it as well as he could have today - not surprising, given how sick he was earlier this month and the subsequent loss of training time and stamina. As I wrote earlier, both Joubert and Nan Song are to be commended for even competing this weekend, and both skated fairly well considering what they went through. If Joubert ever does skate the LP well, he will deserve considerably higher PCS than he received today.

    Look, there are skaters I don't like much, either (e.g. V/T, D/W). But at least I go to the trouble of watching them skate before pronouncing judgment, and I try to acknowledge their strengths and not just go on about their perceived weaknesses.

    glam is correct to point out that Amodio's program is problematic in terms of construction. Go pick on him, considering that he won the LP and medalled, two things that should not have happened.
    Actually I watched Joubert´s freeskate twice, once from live streaming and the second time from tv. It looks a 6.0 programme to me, with a very simple basic choreography which gave him possibilities to do his jumps . And I was not that much impressed by his footwork either.
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-18-2012 at 01:37 PM.

  11. #146
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    I see you chose to address a specific point I made, but it kind of proves what I was saying yesterday: every program Joubert does or has done seems to elicit the same reaction from you; you repeat "he was overscored on PCS, he has 6.0 programs". This, regardless of the PCS he receives (it wasn't high yesterday by any means) and regardless of the program content. There are never any positives. Would you be able to say something nice about him or Plushenko on this thread?

    Since you say you do watch Joubert skate, I can't help but wonder if you do so with certain preconceptions as to what his skating and programs are like, and are unwilling or unable to consider the possibility that these do not always apply. Or maybe you like a very specific range of programs, where you can see each bullet point being checked off. I honestly don't know, but whatever works for you; it is just skating, after all, and there's a limit to how much cognitive effort any of us will be willing to put into it. It's hard for me to deal with my own confirmation bias at times, too.

    It would be nice, however, if you at least varied your comments on occasion to liven things up a bit.

  12. #147
    Custom Title verte76's Avatar
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    Who won this competition?

  13. #148
    Custom Title verte76's Avatar
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    I've watched this stuff on Eurosport before, when I had speakers in my computer. Now I don't. Phooey!

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    how can you not be taken with this? How can your heart not be lifted? – though don’t tell me if yours isn’t, I might cry
    Please don't cry. I was not impressed by that "international" performance. It is understandable that each singer would not get an equal share, but why were longer phrases all sung by ones whose native language is English? Why were most prominent positions (e.g., beginning and the end) all occupied by them as well? What on earth did that Japanese guy hide in the midst of an all-white fraternity? The inequality could have been easily justified had they all sung in English. But they didn't. They sang in their native tongue. The fact that English is the lingua franca has been reflected by the greater number of English-speaking singers. It is not necessary to further give them more important roles.

    Had it started with the French (Les Misérables is a French novel after all) and ended with the Japanese, the message conveyed through that performance would have been totally different, that is, the cultural spread from French to various cultures, even to Japanese, the least expected candidate.

    Anyway, I didn't get a good feeling after watching that performance, another ethnocentric performance that they called "international"--that's what I thought.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 11-18-2012 at 05:10 PM.

  15. #150
    Rooting for Adrian, Javi and Kevin R!!! :) aemeraldrainc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Please don't cry. I was not impressed by that "international" performance. It is understandable that each singer would not get an equal share, but why were longer phrases all sung by ones whose native language is English? Why were most prominent positions (e.g., beginning and the end) all occupied by them as well? What on earth did that Japanese guy hide in the midst of an all-white fraternity? The inequality could have been easily justified had they all sung in English. But they didn't. They sang in their native tongue. The fact that English is the lingua franca has been reflected by the greater number of English-speaking singers. It is not necessary to further give them more important roles.

    Had it started with the French (Les Misérables is a French novel after all) and ended with the Japanese, the message conveyed through that performance would have been totally different, that is, the cultural spread from French to various cultures, even to Japanese, the least expected candidate.

    Anyway, I didn't get a good feeling after watching that performance, another ethnocentric performance that they called "international"--that's what I thought.
    Yeah. And where was the Spanish guy? Are there no Spanish-speaking Les Miserables productions? hehehe.

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