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Thread: 2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

  1. #106
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Joubert skated to a 6.0 programme in a CoP competition... I would say he was overscored, especially in PCS.

    Hmm, I did not notice that Joubert was doing technically something better than he got the credit for. The judging was very fair technically, in my opinion. In PCS the judges were not fair, giving some skaters a lot more PCS than they deserved. Nan Song was definetely robbed!!!
    Yes, I can see that you were not paying attention and simply had your "overscored" comment ready to go as usual, and are happy to accept the judgment of a technical panel led by the very objective Joe Inman. I love that we have Mr. Inman heading one panel and Mrs. Piseev heading another.

    Joubert has a lovely long program this season. It is not a 6.0 program by any means and a lot of thought and work went to it. Granted, it is not the usual paint by numbers stuff we see so often these days, nor did he perform it as well as he could have today - not surprising, given how sick he was earlier this month and the subsequent loss of training time and stamina. As I wrote earlier, both Joubert and Nan Song are to be commended for even competing this weekend, and both skated fairly well considering what they went through. If Joubert ever does skate the LP well, he will deserve considerably higher PCS than he received today.

    Look, there are skaters I don't like much, either (e.g. V/T, D/W). But at least I go to the trouble of watching them skate before pronouncing judgment, and I try to acknowledge their strengths and not just go on about their perceived weaknesses.

    glam is correct to point out that Amodio's program is problematic in terms of construction. Go pick on him, considering that he won the LP and medalled, two things that should not have happened.

  2. #107
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    I don't think Jeremy has that much chances. The next competition is National and he be in the mix with the rest of inconsistent men. Assuming he make it to one of the spot, at 4CC he be up against Chan and 3 of the six Japanese men. by World add Fernandez and Plushenko...that already 5-6 men who can beat him on a so so day the way he skating the past few season.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    The Nationals I was slightly unsure about, but I'm perfectly willing to "give you that", so to speak - especially as I'm not sure about US men. (Who has a reliable quad anyway? Joshua Farris?)

    But 4CC was what I was really wondering about. Worlds', frankly, I don't think there's any chance without a quad - or, at least, I hope so! as otherwise it would mean that it was a dismal splatfest, as we know most of the top guys will be going for quads.
    4CC will be interesting this year. At this point, which skaters Japan decides to send to 4CC will determine everybody's else chances at the podium. If it's Hanyu, Kozuka, and Takahashi, just forget it.

    However, I think it will likely be Mura, Oda, and Machida, given that the Japanese federation likes to spread their stock of skaters between 4CC and Worlds. If so, Jeremy has a high chance at making the podium with a solid free skate with a full range of triples and high-level spins. He's just losing way too much ground by popping triples and getting Lvl 1 spins right now for me to want him to put in a quad.

    Really, I just want him to skate a solid clean program with eight triples. It will do well for his confidence and I think he just wants people to understand his self-choreographed programs as an artist.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Look at their body types..I no wonder...

    ----------

    And you don't forget, this is a sport, a competition.
    I think perhaps it might be helpful if you could remember or at least take into consideration the fact that figure skating is a unique sport which combines athleticism with artistry. You don't really have great figure skating if there is an unequal emphasis on one aspect over the other. That is simply a fact. People in the sport know it too -- the ISU judges are slobbering at the mouth over Chan and Hanyu because these two are seen to have WOW amazing quads along with at the least way more artistry than one-dimensional skaters who only have the jumps. The judges especially love Chan because his SS are so rare and spectacular. And obviously the way Hanyu was so highly (I think a bit too highly) scored at SA in the sp is because he has amazing jumps when he goes clean, even though right now he lacks full artistic maturity and physical endurance.

  5. #110
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    If Jeremy continues this inconsistency in his technical department, I could see him losing the opportunity to go to the worlds.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    The Nationals I was slightly unsure about, but I'm perfectly willing to "give you that", so to speak - especially as I'm not sure about US men. (Who has a reliable quad anyway? Joshua Farris?)

    But 4CC was what I was really wondering about. Worlds', frankly, I don't think there's any chance without a quad - or, at least, I hope so! as otherwise it would mean that it was a dismal splatfest, as we know most of the top guys will be going for quads.
    Actually Max Aaron has a VERY reliable quad. He did not get a GP, but he has done quite well in the senior B competitions he's entered getting a gold at the U.S. Classic and silver at Coupe de Nice. And then he won his sectionals with a technically strong program that included a 4T-3T and two 3A.

    He finished 8th in his seniors debut last year. I think he could be a dark horse this year...

    And yes Josh Farris also did a lovely quad in Lake Placid. He didn't do it at this other JGP. He also could come and mix things up.

    ETA: Aaron has done both 4S and 4T this season. It will be quite interesting if he can pull out both.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-17-2012 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Actually Max Aaron has a VERY reliable quad. He did not get a GP, but he has done quite well in the senior B competitions he's entered getting a gold at the U.S. Classic and silver at Coupe de Nice. And then he won his sectionals with a technically strong program that included a 4T-3T and two 3A.

    He finished 8th in his seniors debut last year. I think he could be a dark horse this year...

    And yes Josh Farris also did a lovely quad in Lake Placid. He didn't do it at this other JGP. He also could come and mix things up.

    ETA: Aaron has done both 4S and 4T this season. It will be quite interesting if he can pull out both.
    Well, that sounds like it could be a really unpredictable event - let's hope it is in a good way, by everybody surpassing expectations.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Never mind is right!

    Mura is okay and obviously not as bad as Menshov. I'm pretty sure that the sport would never go so far as to have Menshov actually winning gold in a field like this even. His PCS would have to keep him down, whereas they give Mura not so bad PCS. I think Mura as a young skater has way more opportunity to improve his presentation skills than Menshov will ever be capable of accomplishing.



    I agree that not everybody is the same when it comes to aging and physical abilities. Look at Plushenko who just has a strong will that overcomes his physical decline. Not the same with Johnny, who has admitted as much. Your mind might be willing, but your body doesn't always go along. Same thing goes for dancers and athletes in other sports.
    I don't know if you noticed but Mura has good basics. He is nothing like Menshov. Mura reminds me of Takeshi Honda.

  9. #114
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joubert has a lovely long program this season. It is not a 6.0 program by any means and a lot of thought and work went to it. Granted, it is not the usual paint by numbers stuff we see so often these days, nor did he perform it as well as he could have today - not surprising, given how sick he was earlier this month and the subsequent loss of training time and stamina. As I wrote earlier, both Joubert and Nan Song are to be commended for even competing this weekend, and both skated fairly well considering what they went through. If Joubert ever does skate the LP well, he will deserve considerably higher PCS than he received today.
    Agreed - I think both Joubert and Nan Song did really well today all things considering - and can feel really proud of what they did. Brian did not skate at all with his usual energy, and looked pretty drained afterwards - the same for Nan Song. But both "held it together", and went out there and did their best. And that is the most anybody can do really, and therefore they certainly should feel satisfied, and they should be commended for their performances.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Er, what in the world has Menshov to do with Mura? So, all you can come up with is that Mura isn't as bad as Menshov?!? Honestly, that's a bit "thick". Yes, I know you were talking about Menshov earlier - but that has nothing to do with Mura, nor his performance here today.

    So, I for my part will say again: Congratulations Mura! And well done to him!
    My apologies to Mura. He did well in the sp, and I'm looking forward to seeing his fp (I signed on late and couldn't find a workable live-streaming link). Also, it's difficult to have a coherent conversation in forums when posts are coming in so rapidly and the focus of conversation shifts. I had been reflecting on the importance of athleticism coupled with artistry and the fact that its too bad Jeremy's artistry isn't coupled with confidence under pressure, and now unfortunately he's having physical difficulties which further exacerbates his confidence in competition. Menshov I had brought up earlier as an example of someone with great jumping ability. I think Mura has great jumping ability as well, but he also possesses more polish along with the potential to improve his presentation skills. Mura reminds me somewhat of Max Aaron, in terms of their physicality and jumping abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    To me it's obvious that the US men need some help big time at the moment. Jeremy is not reliable and all the other US men have been disappointing this season. Weir and Lysacek are not the answer though at least with Evan you know he will usually lay down a good skate and is a fighter. But the others are either headcases or just don't have it. Which means looking to the Junior ranks for the future. Farris should have gotten two assignments because he could not do any worse then what we have seen this season plus he needs the experience. But the US men are lacking right now.
    Disappointing to you in what respect? Is it the fact that they don't yet have consistency with the quad? Well, at the least they are putting the quad out there and trying the best they can. In actual fact, I think Richard and Ross have excellent programs this season, and they are both fairly consistent skaters. They don't yet have solid quads but they are still relatively young and I wouldn't completely count them out to become top contenders on the international scene. Perhaps one of the problems for all the young up-and-coming skaters is that the veterans are still hanging around cluttering the field (and I'm including Plushenko, Johnny, Evan, Joubert, Verner, Menshov and others as well). In the past, skaters would have only one or two shots at the Olympics and then moved on for a new cycle of skaters to come to the fore. I'm not sorry that Jeremy has continued although he too is a veteran skater. But at least he didn't take two years off. It's a shame though that Jeremy couldn't have performed as well at 2010 Olympics the way he did at 2010 Nationals. And its also too bad there isn't an established professional competition tour these days for the older skaters.

    Evan has rarely landed quads consistently and the entire men's landscape has changed since Evan has not been competing. Also, keep in mind that Evan is suffering from injury problems. Evan does possess a lot of confidence and a fighting spirit, but he is also not a great skater artistically. His coach and choreographer helped him with good music and packaging, and he delivered at 2010 Olympics, but the quad was not an absolute requirement then. It remains to be seen how Evan will fare in his comeback bid. You are being too simplistic IMO by writing off all the other U.S. men and deciding that Farris is the savior who should have been assigned two GPs. I actually think it might have helped Farris to get at least one senior GP this season, but it certainly shouldn't hurt his development to continue gaining confidence on the JGP circuit and then show his mettle at U.S. Nationals in January.

    It's hard to speak about all of this in simplistic soundbites, but it is easier than writing a thesis.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I don't know if you noticed but Mura has good basics. He is nothing like Menshov. Mura reminds me of Takeshi Honda.
    Of course that's true, and that's exactly what I indicated in a couple of my posts already. Guess you missed it. Yes, I do detect some similarity between Mura and Honda as well. At the recent Pro-Am competition where Kurt and Honda competed, I thought Honda looked very good at this stage of his life, and he'd even improved his skating in terms of smoothness and artistry. Another reason why it's a shame all the older skaters don't have a venue to continue competing and showing off their mature expressiveness.

  12. #117
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    My apologies to Mura. He did well in the sp, and I'm looking forward to seeing his fp (I signed on late and couldn't find a workable live-streaming link). Also, it's difficult to have a coherent conversation in forums when posts are coming in so rapidly and the focus of conversation shifts. I had been reflecting on the importance of athleticism coupled with artistry and the fact that its too bad Jeremy's artistry isn't coupled with confidence under pressure, and now unfortunately he's having physical difficulties which further exacerbates his confidence in competition. Menshov I had brought up earlier as an example of someone with great jumping ability. I think Mura has great jumping ability as well, but he also possesses more polish along with the potential to improve his presentation skills. Mura reminds me somewhat of Max Aaron, in terms of their physicality and jumping abilities.
    Yes, I can understand that - things can get a bit rapid-fire, and converstions get "crossed" so to speak - I just thought it wasn't quite fair to Mura; and he should be judged on his own merits.

  13. #118
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Agreed - I think both Joubert and Nan Song did really well today all things considering - and can feel really proud of what they did. Brian did not skate at all with his usual energy, and looked pretty drained afterwards - the same for Nan Song. But both "held it together", and went out there and did their best. And that is the most anybody can do really, and therefore they certainly should feel satisfied, and they should be commended for their performances.
    Joubert has already stated that he is satisfied considering how much training time he'd missed coming in (source, in French). I'm sure he's aiming for better things once he's had more time to recover (my understanding is that he came pretty close to a bowel obstruction, which is not good) and train more.

    I wish he'd dump the SP, though. I live in hope that same day he'd bring back All For You, my very favorite of his short programs that he skated very few times.

  14. #119
    Custom Title Butterscotch17's Avatar
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    I haven't watched the competition or anything, but I am so shocked to hear that Takahito Mura won! Wow! And Japan does it again... He is the sixth Japanese man to get on a Grand Prix podium - crazy. Poor Jeremy, he really missed an opportunity.

  15. #120
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    I agree with Buttercup re: Why the picking on Joubert? I give Joubert credit for great desire and hard won effort. I feel sorry for him that the ground shifted underneath him in the sport as artistry, stretch and grace became more valued. Then Lambiel and Buttle came to the fore, so Joubert was not just being pitted against Plushenko alone. Also, Joubert's progress has been hampered by his numerous injuries. For him to keep trying in the face of huge obstacles, he deserves our admiration and respect.

    Amodio under Morosov's tutelage has far less appeal to me than even an aging but still charismatic Joubert.

    Another factor that doesn't appear to be uppermost in people's minds regarding Jeremy: He's simply not at full strength physically. Unfortunately, since he's had a tendency to have problems with nerves even when he isn't suffering from physical problems, I guess he gets no benefit of the doubt with fs fans.

    ETA:
    Of course, there's no doubt that with his talent and wonderful programs this season, Jeremy coulda shoulda won both SA and TEB.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2012 at 01:15 PM.

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