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Thread: 2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

  1. #121
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    That's the thing. I don't think he needs it. In this system, it's far better to execute the elements you know well but keep your base value high with strong combinations with triple toes.

    I agree that he needs a quad to podium at Worlds, but not every competition is Worlds. I would rather see him build his reputation as a consistent jumper on the triples and triple axels, than risk it with a quad that he has trouble fully rotating.

    In this system, I would only recommend the quad if a skater can be sure to get credit for all four revolutions, because a fall on the element still earns around 6 points overall. But once a skater underrotates the element, it destroys its worth. In this case, he'll probably earn about two points for the attempted quad. If he did a 3F+3T instead, which can he do with little effort, he would have gotten closer to 9 points, plus positive GOEs.
    The problem is that the Zayak rules prevent a skater from using this strategy. If you don't do a quad, then you can't take advantage of all your jumping passes.

    Suppose Jeremy follows your advice. He leaves out the quad and changes his 3F+2T to a 3F+3T. Now his program is

    3Lz
    3F+3T
    3A
    3A+2T
    3Lz+3T
    3Lo
    3S

    He has already violated the Zayak rules by repeating 3A, 3Lz, and 3T, and he still has one more jumping pass to fill with nothing but a 2A available.

    The rules make it tough on a skater who doesn't have a quad.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The problem is that the Zayak rules prevent a skater from using this strategy. If you don't do a quad, then you can't take advantage of all your jumping passes.

    Suppose Jeremy follows your advice. He leaves out the quad and changes his 3F+2T to a 3F+3T. Now his program is

    3Lz
    3F+3T
    3A
    3A+2T
    3Lz+3T
    3Lo
    3S

    He has already violated the Zayak rules by repeating 3A, 3Lz, and 3T, and he still has one more jumping pass to fill with nothing but a 2A available.

    The rules make it tough on a skater who doesn't have a quad.
    There is no need of 3F+3T since he's not repeating 3F. He should try a 3 jump combo with the 1/2loop. So he would only repeat 3A and 3Lz, the highest value triples. No Zayaking. As for 2A, even the World Champion with 2 quads in the LP does it.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-17-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  3. #123
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    Despite the fact that I don't like Amodio's skating, I could see he has actually expressed himself quite well in details. His program is very theatrical and very French. If you compare Amodio's this LP with Oda's COR LP, you could actually find that Oda was a lot lacking in the abilities on layers of artistic expressions, even though my heart was much more leaning on Oda than Amodio all the time. So I understand why Amodio got high PCS especially P/E and IN.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-17-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  4. #124
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    So glad CTV showed Nan Song's LP. Very nice effort and he got almost all the elements done nicely. Need a bit more strength to energize the whole program and deliver the choreography to the full potential. Now go home and have some well deserved restth

    I don't like Amodio's choreography, but his ability to deliver theatrical program is very remarkable indeed.

  5. #125
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    I'm surprised to hear about the grading of Jeremy's spins. Somehow I think that a skater specializing in artistry and execution would take special care with the spins--especially since he trains with one of the world's best spinners, Alissa Czisny. Neglecting spins seems like a wasted opportunity, especially since Jeremy's jumps often desert him.

  6. #126
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    Jeremy is not getting any younger. Between him Weir and Lysacek is it a coincidence that all 3 have been hurt this year? Especailly for Weir and Lysacek trying to get into competitive shape at their age after two years off.
    Last edited by Jammers; 11-17-2012 at 04:28 PM.

  7. #127
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    MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS & RESULT

    1. Takahito MURA (JPN) - 230.68 Free Skate
    2. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) - 227.63 Free Skate
    3. Florent AMODIO (FRA) - 214.25 Free Skate
    4. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) - 210.16 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
    5. Nan SONG (CHN) - 205.48 Free Skate
    6. Jinlin GUAN (CHN) - 191.99 Free Skate
    7. Chafik BESSEGHIER (FRA) - 183.32 Free Skate
    8. Tomas VERNER (CZE) - 181.72 Free Skate
    Last edited by Mao88; 11-17-2012 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Despite the fact that I don't like Amodio's skating, I could see he has actually expressed himself quite well in details. His program is very theatrical and very French. If you compare Amodio's this LP with Oda's COR LP, you could actually find that Oda was a lot lacking in the abilities on layers of artistic expressions, even though my heart was much more leaning on Oda than Amodio all the time. So I understand why Amodio got high PCS especially P/E and IN.
    I agree with you. I've been a fan of Nuttin' But Stringz sfor a long time (pre-AGT days), and I've always wanted a skater to use their music, who would also really use the nuance in the music. Amodio is obviously the skater to do that, but he needs to do more with his skates. The gestures and movement is perfect for the music, but since he chooses to stop his movements, the program gets choppy. NBS is not everyone's cup of tea in terms of music - I'm a classical music junky - but I like what the Escobar brothers have developed artistically and it keeps things interesting (they are Julliard-trained violinists after all). If Amodio develops this program more, I think it can be a very good programs to him since the music suits him stylistically. Amodio has always pushed the envelope, and often, I personally think too much, but this year I think it's a happy medium.

    I hope that Jeremy uses the next month to work through physio and get everything on the same page. I really appreciate what he brings to the ice and that he believes a part of growing artistically as a skater is to develop a program that is really his. both US Nationals and Japanese Nationals will be very interesting as one competition will be about is the younger skaters stepping up, the old guys hanging around, and the head-cases holding it together...and the other will be all about who crosses gets across the finish in a stacked field.

  9. #129
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    My thoughts on the Men's LP

    Mura: First time I've seen him skate (again, haven't watched FS much these past years). I found him wonderful (minus the outfit and the single flip). His quad was breathtakingly clean and he makes his jumps look so easy. Great consistency as well, 'cause he nailed everything from what I caught of his warm-up, which is why it was all the more surprising to see him pop the last jump. Some stupid lady behind me in the audience was happy that he missed it, she was rooting for Amodio..

    Abbott: Despite the few mistakes, I was thrilled to see him land his 1st 3 axel, because he kept missing it on the warm-up. Loved the ending of his program.

    Amodio: Not my favorite skater and too much posing, as usual. Have to admit he really sold his program though. Good for him.

    Joubert: Another skater that I've never appreciated. I think the choreography doesn't suit him at all. Too bad, cuz I love Inception score.

    Chinese guys: In my opinion, their posture or carriage aren't good enough to make their routine to those overused music worth watching. Solid jumps for Song but boring programs.

    Besseghier: Pleasantly surprised by his skate. Should get a new costume though.

    Verner: Used to love this skater. What happened to him? Seems to have gone downhill.. :(

  10. #130
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    There is no need of 3F+3T since he's not repeating 3F. He should try a 3 jump combo with the 1/2loop. So he would only repeat 3A and 3Lz, the highest value triples. No Zayaking. As for 2A, even the World Champion with 2 quads in the LP does it.
    It's still hard to see how to squeeze much more out of his program, even if he doubles up with, say a 3F+1/2Lo + 3S+2Lo (?)

    He still has the problem that after doing two triple Axels, 2 triple Lutzes, 3F, 3Lo, and 3S, no matter how they are combined, he doesn't have many big-point options left.

    Lysacek won the Olympics with 3Lz+3T, 3A, 3Lo, 3A+2T, 3Lz, 3S, 3F+2T+2Lo, 2A. You can't squeeze much more out of the CoP than that without a quad, no matter what combinations you put together.

    Still, I agree that Abbott should skate the program that he can skate best and let the chips fall as they may.

  11. #131
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of Les Miz programs, and Abbott leaves me cold most times, but I really like his LP...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    My thoughts on the Men's LP

    Joubert: Another skater that I've never appreciated. I think the choreography doesn't suit him at all. Too bad, cuz I love Inception score.

    Verner: Used to love this skater. What happened to him? Seems to have gone downhill.. :(
    I agree about Joubert. I liked Joubert in the beginning of his career but I think I expected him to improve with his programs and artistry. That just never happened no matter who was training him. I also love Inception and would love someone more artistic to skate to it. Who choreographs for him.

    Poor Verner. I also wonder what happened to him. Maybe everyone is just getting older and it shows and COP is much harder on the body.

    I don't like that hair on Jeremy and I agree he does look a little different. He looks a little bigger. I was wondering if he's lifting weights more or something. I think whatever it is it's affecting his jumps etc.
    Last edited by lavender; 11-18-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  13. #133
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    I do feel sad when skaters like Abbot battle with competitions - whether it is nerves, or physical ailments or both. But, even though others will feel differently, I just get so, so, so mesmerized by Abbot's skating, particularly his LPs. I really didn't think he could top Muse from last year - I never got enough of that program, but his Les Mis is just amazing. I really hope he can nail the back to back triple axels in competition because it just so 'goes with' the music. But, and I said this (I think) with SA, at this point, I don't care - meaning, I just love watching him skate, come what may. Of course I wish him success, but as a fan, and in selfish mode, I just want to see him skate and let the chips/points fall where they may.

  14. #134
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    Random thought: If Hanyu or Takahashi wins NHK, we would've had six winners on the GP circuit. When has that happened last?

    Takahito Mura: I’m relatively positive. It was mainly an element skate, but not entirely – he spaces the program quite well and the hydroblade ending is definitely cool.

    Jeremy Abbott: Buttercup mentioned he was surprised at the adulation for this program. As someone who was not taken by Muse or Life is Beautiful at all, I have to admit I’m surprised I love this program as much as I do. I’m taken with this program mainly because he manages to connect so strongly with the soulful power of this music. Les Miserables needs the human voice. The power comes from a huge cast singing these anthemic power songs (I mean, how can you not be taken with this? How can your heart not be lifted? – though don’t tell me if yours isn’t, I might cry). You don’t need the words per se as much as the voice. But Abbott, somehow, makes it work. His long limbed fluidity is really a beautiful match to this musical entreaty. The way the first triple axel works with the music is mesmerizing. The only aesthetic flaw in this program was his hair, in my mind. And that’s a stupid comment for me to make, I know, aftershocks. I really do hope he skates this perfectly once this season. Preferably at Worlds.

    Florent Amodio: Without a doubt, the best mannequin on ice. His poses are amazing. He can hold a tonne of unimaginative positions without moving even while standing on an ice rink! All things considered, he can be proud of coming back from yesterday’s disaster and for skating this unimaginative program as well as he did. And I think he’s actually a really terrific interpreter of music, but we’ll never see it under Morosov. Steuer needs to kidnap him and hold him hostage to his fantastic choreography. Otherwise it’ll be the biggest waste ever. But if he skates this well it’ll score high with the PCS inflation Morosov politicks. The problem is that if everyone else skates well, he won’t be in the top five (maybe not even the top ten)

    Brian Joubert: Joubert was robbed at TEB. I will never utter those words again, because it is a freak occurrence (plus, he likely only has one more TEB. Whoa. The retirements after Sochi are really gonna be huge). I hope he skate this program to its potential because it could be a career best LP for him (I won’t even mind if he keeps it for two years, likely going to be necessary imo). I think his PCS was largely fair (and given how many gifts he’s received in the past, it’s hard to say he was undermarked), but it was Amodio’s overmaking that was his undoing.

    Nan Song: Good effort. Clearly undertrained (getting a concussion will do that to you, of course) but he demonstrated tremendous grit getting through that.

    Tomas Verner: His TES wouldn’t have been top five in the ladies event. A disappointingly impersonal skate from someone who just seems to be going through the motions.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-17-2012 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #135
    Custom Title rosacotton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Random thought: If Hanyu or Takahashi wins NHK, we would've had six winners on the GP circuit. When has that happened last?
    Since the series began, always at least one skater has won two of the events. So history would be made if Hanyu or Takahashi win NHK!

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