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Thread: 2012 TEB Ladies Long Program Lp

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    My original comments quoted above were meant to be sarcastic re sky_fly20's attitude toward Adelina. I was not comparing Adelina against Julia with my comment.
    I know but no need to write two posts and not 2 ideas in one.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Okay, cool.


    I understand that you don't buy it--that's totally fine. But my point was that Liza's flirtatiousness matches the music. If it has no depth for you, fine, okay, but I'll stick with the point of view that Liza's moves reflect her music. Whether or not one likes it is up to them, but these are moves that one can logically see how they connect to the music.
    Okay, cool.


    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Again, are you referring to the SP or FS? In her FS, Christina is skating to Libertango. I agree with you that Christina is not trying to flirt, but IMO, in her FS, she desperately needs to flirt. It's a tango. She needs fire, she needs fierce movements, she needs flirtatiousness and sensuality, and none of that is there. See Kanako Murakami's FS for an example of a well-done tango FS.


    Again, I'm not arguing against your preference. Christina may have a subtle style (I think introverted is a better word), in which case, she should have never skated to Libertango, because it is not music that calls for subtlety.
    Cool that you enjoy Liza and feel she has "fire." Like I said, I feel more warmth in Christina's skating than I do in Liza's. I think Bezic's expression of "subtlety" in Christina's skating is right on. I don't think "introverted" is exactly the right word to express Christina's style of skating. Introverted expresses more about one's personality than it does a style of skating, IMO. Not to say that "introverted" should never be used -- maybe Christina does have an introverted personality, I don't know if that's true or not. She may in fact have an outgoing personality and yet a subtlety in her skating at the same time.

    Ultimately, I don't think "introverted" expresses what Bezic was getting at which I think is that Christina has a warmth as well as an underlying "subtlety" to her skating. Coolness might more be associated with subtlety, yet that's the complexity I feel from Christina's skating. At this point, I don't feel the same kind of depth and complexity to Liza's skating as I do in Christina's. But again, it's a matter of perception and preference. What "floats your boat" in other words. OTOH, I do find it kind of fascinating that Liza looks like she could be Johnny Weir's younger sister, or even the spitting image of Johnny himself.

    As far as Libertango calling for more fire than subtlety, well then that's the challenge for Christina. She's got a lot to look forward to with further developing both of her great programs this season. And I say kudos to her coaches too for their brilliant guidance!
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    Mao88 should get a medal for providing us with all of these videos all the time!!! Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!! ...

    For final flight, I have only watched Ashley Wagner thus far. I want to gush!!! But here's the substance of my gush in a nutshell: it's so cool to see someone so well trained and confident just lay it down in competition; she didn't even look tired at the end at all! And, did she study Kwan's skating or what? She has so many Kwan-like flourishes and is clearly taking her time with each move and, while perhaps not quite like Kwan's double axel ride out, she is nevertheless showing us her landing run out edges and it is really so cool to watch. Kudos!!
    ITA! Re Michelle Kwan, if you read Ashley's blogs and print interviews, you will find that Ashley does indeed admire and look up to Kwan as a role model to emulate. However, I think Ashley has a different style and uniqueness all her own that she is exploring, discovering and revealing with her every performance.

  4. #229
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    If Agnes will be 3rd in Japan, who will get the ticket to GPF her on Liza?... is 2+4>3+3 in this case?

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    ITA! Re Michelle Kwan, if you read Ashley's blogs and print interviews, you will find that Ashley does indeed admire and look up to Kwan as a role model to emulate. However, I think Ashley has a different style and uniqueness all her own that she is exploring, discovering and revealing with her every performance.
    I didn't know about her admiration for Kwan - and I do completely agree that Ashley has her own style. I wasn't trying to see she was mimicking or modeling herself on Kwan per se or directly; rather, I she shades of similarity in the 'command' of the ice and program, in the taking one's time, and in the flourishes, even if all of these are different in actual content or style between them. I don't know if that makes sense...

    Anyway, I'm hoping to watch more videos tonight or tomorrow. So thanks again Mao88 for posting these for us!

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by raress View Post
    If Agnes will be 3rd in Japan, who will get the ticket to GPF her on Liza?... is 2+4>3+3 in this case?
    Yes. 2+4 beats 3+3 for the first tie-break. Second tie-break is total scores.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Absolutely agree re your assessment of Ashley. I for one am not surprised either at her composure and success, and I bet neither is Ashley or Nicks.

    Liza Tuykt and Julia have a lot of potential and yes they can jump (I think Liza's jumps are technically superior to Julia's but Julia has some beautiful air positions although she doesn't have good height). Also, it's very obvious that Liza is struggling with her body changes, but just by sheer will she got through that fp and completed all of her jumps. However, Liza did not show the maturity, artistry and command of the ice that Ashley showed. I say again, let the young girls grow up.

    Those who mentioned Liza suffering from her ankle injury, sure. So the way she fought for her program shows she's as tough-minded as Tuykt. I still think they both are a bit over-rewarded for their technical precocity. Whereas someone like Gao who has wonderful jumping ability too and is exhibiting much more grace and maturity this season, appears to be far more low-balled in the marks when she makes mistakes than Liza and Julia have been.
    Completely agree I feel that Gao has more maturity and grace on the ice than the younger ones because of her experience and age, but she seems to be judged harshly when she makes mistakes.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    IMO (purely my opinion) I find Liza T superior to Julia in everything minus spins. Liza T lacks that womanly maturity but she does have maturity. It's getting there. What I've always loved about Liza T is her ability to perform. She digs down into her music and performs, connecting with the audience and the judges and giving that little extra energy to her movements. I can't recall ever seeing her skate blankly through a program. She brings her programs to life...even if they aren't that excellent, though I do like her programs this year. She's not close to Ashley in terms of artistry/presentation yet but I do think she's far ahead of Julia.

    Liza's adjusting to her height and weight and it seems like things are starting to fall into place for her. I'm happy to see it!

    I agree about Julia. Technically, she's a strong skater in that she has the difficult jump combinations in her programs. In terms of quality...I think she's lacking a bit, for obvious reasons (in terms of jumps). I do think she's over-scored in PCS but that's what judges do when they get excited: PCS go up. I 100% prefer Gao's skating to Julia's...but that's just me. The judges like Julia more and while that sucks for Christina, that just mean she has to do what Ashley did and find a way to push herself to the front and make herself known.
    Agreed 100%

  9. #234
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    Wagner: So clearly here to win. This makes FOUR long program victories in a row. WTT, Japan Open, Skate America and TEB. Everything about her screams attack. And she’s adding some nuance too. I love the arm positions/changes in her first spin. I’d like to see some more improvement in her jumps – they aren’t jumps that earn huge GOEs because they also look slightly two-footed. Or shouldn’t earn high GOEs anyway. But she’s really staking a claim on this music. Slightly more precision in her movements required, but man alive.

    Tuktamisheva: Well done. Don’t love the program

    Lipnitskaia: And then my leg goes here. And then my leg goes here. And then my leg goes here. And then my leg goes here. Otherwise known as choreography. Really, her PCS should be lower. She goes for the hard elements. True. That’s why we have an element score and her base value helps her out there.

    Gao: I agree with those who think this needs a little more fire. It’s a well choreographed piece, well skated, but it reminds me of Dube/Davison’s 2008 Worlds SP. Everything about it works, except you just don’t feel it.

    Meite: Good for her for skating the program that well after that hard fall. I prefer her short program (the 3-3 combo there is just too good for words).

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Are you saying that Ashley's scores "leave no place for competition." I disagree. Weren't you around when Yu Na was skating. It was Yu Na's high scores that set the high mark in ladies' competition. So there is still lots of room. I don't like the CoP scoring system, but the way it's structured, Ashley's marks are within reason, and more than that, clearly deserved.



    You see it differently re Liza and Christina. My preference is Christina with the way she's been skating overall this season so far including her performances at SA and TEB. She faltered a bit in the sp at TEB, but I still find Christina more engaging to watch than I do Liza. As I said, I feel more warmth from Christina than I do from Liza. That's my personal perception and preference, and it's subjective.

    I characterized Liza's moves as "seemingly mature" because she's still very young and I don't buy the flirtiness. It's studied because she has no mature experience behind it, so it lacks depth and meaning for me. Christina is also young, but instead of flirtiness, I think Christina is simply exhibiting a greater sense of command with the lyrical gracefulness she always possessed but was a bit too gawky and immature in previous seasons to fully express. Now, Christina has more control over her coltishly long legs and arms. The difference IMO between Christina and Liza (because they are both still young and have a lot more developing to do) is that Christina is not trying to flirt, she's only trying to express her inner joy and deep love for skating. I don't think Christina has more maturity than Liza -- they are different people and different skaters and they each have a great deal to offer. I just prefer the Christina I am seeing this season over both Julia and Liza. As Sandra Bezic said at SA, Christina has "subtlety" in her skating, and that is antithetical to "fire," so right now Christina may not be taken as seriously in the marks, plus the fact she hasn't shown this kind of skating prior to this season. I hope Christina decides to stick with skating for the long haul, despite the fact she's attending Harvard full time. That's what makes what she's accomplished so far this season very remarkable!

    At this point, I even like Christina better than Gracie Gold in terms of grace and expressiveness, although Gracie has more height and strength on her jumps.
    can't agree more!!! eloquently said

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    Ladies

    Wagner: I may not like her style or attitude, but I have to recognize that she has the whole package in this LP. I liked her solid jumps, really good stamina, and white boots.

    Tuktamysheva: Love her! So happy that she performed so well. Great 3lutz-3toe.

    Lipnitskaia: Some say her 2 axel looks similar to Lipinski. I'm one of the only few who actually think Tara's 2 axel (despite acknowledging her flawed technique) looks pretty, which is not the case of Julia's. Again, unbelievable positions on her spins, but unattractive.

    Gao: Good performance, but why does she have to do her 3 flutz right in front of the technical panel?

    Meite: Kudos to her for recollecting herself after taking such a hard fall on her opening 3 flip.

    McCorkell: Shouldn't compare her to Witt but still will. I'd rather watch Witt's program without any jumps than McCorkell's version, even if perfectly skated, anyday.

    Other ladies: zzzzzzz
    I agree on your comment on Lipnitskaya

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Okay, cool.




    Cool that you enjoy Liza and feel she has "fire." Like I said, I feel more warmth in Christina's skating than I do in Liza's. I think Bezic's expression of "subtlety" in Christina's skating is right on. I don't think "introverted" is exactly the right word to express Christina's style of skating. Introverted expresses more about one's personality than it does a style of skating, IMO. Not to say that "introverted" should never be used -- maybe Christina does have an introverted personality, I don't know if that's true or not. She may in fact have an outgoing personality and yet a subtlety in her skating at the same time.

    Ultimately, I don't think "introverted" expresses what Bezic was getting at which I think is that Christina has a warmth as well as an underlying "subtlety" to her skating. Coolness might more be associated with subtlety, yet that's the complexity I feel from Christina's skating. At this point, I don't feel the same kind of depth and complexity to Liza's skating as I do in Christina's. But again, it's a matter of perception and preference. What "floats your boat" in other words. OTOH, I do find it kind of fascinating that Liza looks like she could be Johnny Weir's younger sister, or even the spitting image of Johnny himself.

    As far as Libertango calling for more fire than subtlety, well then that's the challenge for Christina. She's got a lot to look forward to with further developing both of her great programs this season. And I say kudos to her coaches too for their brilliant guidance!
    Again, well said

  13. #238
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    Seems like this year GPF crown will be on wagner's head

  14. #239
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    I am happy for all the top 4 ladies. Liza does look much heavier than last year, especially when I was watching her SP in this competition. Since it is the same SP, she moves slower than she did last year (didn't know why she switched from Love Story back to this one though). But her jumps are big:-) Hope she can control her weight, and get even slimmer.

    I love Julia. Nothing is wrong to be that flexible, she just need to build her flex moves into choreo, not making people think she is just showing flexibility for flexibility's sake; Remember last year people were complaining Liza's excessive hand movement. This year, she just got rid of them, and probably even easier for her. As a 14 year old, she is amazing. For me, no matter you get on the podium at 14 or 28, it is the same podium. Why many people complain she (and other young girls) is good at jumps only because she is young and small.
    Come on, every lady has a time when she is 14; you weren't as good as Julia, or Liza (last year) when you were 14, it's not their problem.

    From the very beginning of this year, I feel Ashely's personality is going to help her a great deal. She appears super confident, acts in the way she is the best, and tried her best to sell that to the judges before she even jumps. Her techniques are good, I just don't personally like her (artistic) style (too much like stage acting, I like the more natural, subtle style).

    Christina has been under estimated. She was 5th for 3 consecutive years at US nationals, but in the past 3 years, she grow a lot in her height. I think this year, she finally stopped grow taller, and her jumps are therefore more consistent. The only thing I dislike about her is her head-neck-back line: it looks very awkward to me (in an inelegant way).

    I really cannot predict what will happen to them in the future. Nobody can guarantee the jumps will stay with them. Mao's lost a lot of her jumps; I doubt all Yuna's jumps would stay with her either, since last time when she was perfect, she was only 19. I want to keep my mind open to every skater:-)

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    ...
    Wagner: I may not like her style or attitude, but I have to recognize that she has the whole package in this LP. I liked her solid jumps, really good stamina, and white boots. ...

    ...
    Yes, to each their own. And well, Ashley's sure got your attention and your respect, right?

    Ashley Wagner is not your everyday old-fashioned pretty lyrical ice princess waiting to be saved by the frog prince or dreaming of a white knight on a black horse swooping down to carry her off into happily ever after. In some quarters, she's now being referred to as Ashley Swagner! I say, right on! Bring on the swag, Ms. Ash!

    Love that, John Nicks! Ashley's very own Yoda! But again, her Yoda didn't save her, he simply and with great expertise helped teach and guide her in how to uncover the pot of gold that she already possessed deep within her heart and soul.

    Hubba, hubba!
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 11-17-2012 at 10:06 PM.

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