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Thread: 2012 NHK Men's Short Program SP

  1. #136
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Preciely, my dear! That's why this sport is losing its popularty thanks to people like you who are advocating for lesser rewards for more difficult elements. You said yourself that it's a "harder combo". But what rewards we have in SP according to your beloved CoP: 4T-3T combo+3L= 14.40+6.00=20.40; 4T+3L-3T combo=10.30+10.10=20.40, i.e. the same points for challenging a harder combo 4T-3T and challenging 3L-3T that some junior girls can do . What can be more laughable. Sport has always been about achivements, doing something tougher and new. It's sick to see how you call yourself things "harder" and yet you see nothing wrong that athletes are not properly rewarded for doing harder things. World record is smth. that has never done before a priori. Things that are called "world record" now according to CoP is in fact poorly recycled stuff that some dudes could do years ago. :
    Who cares what you see or not. It happened and that's it. Overscored GOE for the jumps that Javi didn't do worse but got lesser GOE, pretyy much the same PCS as Dai (what a joke), so the soup of 10 points difference after SP is cooked, just like in classic Chanflation.
    First of all where did I say that I agreed about how combos are scored. I would see quad combos scored higher. However right now the system is the system. I could argue that there is a certain difficulty though putting footwork in between an actual quad. This being said as for the GOE. Hanyu for example had a very difficult entrance into his 3axel and fairly got huge GOE, many would disagree the quality of Fernandez's 3axel was better let alone the entrance being as hard. Its obvious you have a thing against Hanyu.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    First of all Takahashi should not have gotten a +GOE for his 3a. That should have been -1. Second of all Takahashi got lucky that the tech panel didn't call that 3lz3t >, and he got lucky with that same combo in the LP. Takahashi was overscored in TES, otherwise he would have been third behind Fernandez.
    I think Takahashi's marks for his 3A in the SP were fine. Here is the GOE he received:

    1 0 0 3 -1 1 -1 -1 1

    Except for the extreme outlier (the +3 GOE which I'm inclined to think was probably a case of wrong-button pressing on the judge's part), I found that these marks were in range of the GOE guidelines as listed in the tech handbook.

    The positive GOE guidelines are below. I argue Takahashi's 3A in his NHK SP fulfilled the GOE bulletpoints I bolded:

    1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    According to the guidelines (which are admittedly somewhat discretionary), judges are supposed to give +1 GOE for 2 bulletpoints, +2 GOE for 4 bulletpoints, and +3 GOE for 6 or more bulletpoints.

    As Takahashi fulfilled 3 bulletpoints, judges have the discretion to give him around +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects for his 3A. The weak landing is (according to the tech guidelines) is supposed to be penalized with a reduction of -1 to -2 GOE (again, whether the judge chooses to subtract -1 or -2 from the overall GOE is discretionary and I guess depends on the egregiousness of the weak landing). So if you add all the GOE up and take into consideration all these factors, a range of -1 to +1 GOE for his 3A is actually quite reasonable according to the rules.

    If you want to look at the rules yourself, they can be found here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3589

    Also, I don't think Takahashi's 3Lz-3T in his SP should have been called < at all. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise?
    Last edited by evangeline; 11-25-2012 at 02:59 PM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Except for the extreme outlier (the +3 GOE which I'm inclined to think was probably a case of wrong-button pressing on the judge's part)
    ……
    As Takahashi fulfilled 3 bulletpoints, judges have the discretion to give him around +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects for his 3A. The weak landing is (according to the tech guidelines) is supposed to be penalized with a reduction of -1 to -2 GOE (again, whether the judge chooses to subtract -1 or -2 from the overall GOE is discretionary and I guess depends on the egregiousness of the weak landing). So if you add all the GOE up and take into consideration all these factors, a range of -1 to +1 GOE for his 3A is actually quite reasonable according to the rules.
    But the thing is that I don’t know if that +3 GOE was really a wrong-button pressing or the judge deliberately favoring Takahashi, since that judge gave Takahashi highest GOE on pretty much all elements. S/he could be favoring Takahashi. Plus, I think the scoring needs to be fair. For instance, Fernandez got +0.86 in GOE (a range of 0 to +1) for his 3a and he only had a slightly weak landing. The judges should give him +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects and then -1 for that slightly weak landing, thus ending up with a range of 0 to +1 GOE. By that logic, Takahashi could get +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects, but the judges should really have -2 for his landing because it was much weaker than Fernandez’ landing. So Takahashi’s GOE should end up with a range of -1 to 0 instead of -1 to 1 and his GOE should have been negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Also, I don't think Takahashi's 3Lz-3T in his SP should have been called < at all. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise?
    That 3lz3t was so obviously under-rotated that anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it. Since you seem to know the rules well, I think you just need to watch Takahashi’s SP video one more time and you’ll see that the 3t in that combo is as under-rotated as the second 4t in his LP. Your posts have good logic.

    I’m not trying to be nitpicking here because if I want to pick on Takahashi then it would be easier to pick on his 4t, which was often called < or <<. I’ve seen many people complaining about how he got lucky with 4t not called <, but I did not choose to talk about that 4t here because it was not under-rotated. I think people often question Takahashi’s 4t because it’s habitually < or <<, so when someone questions it then others would have the preconceived idea and then believe that it was < again. Takahashi’s 3lz3t OTOH was not often called <, and people usually would not question his 3lz3t. But I watched the SP and saw Takahashi’s 4t was indeed fully rotated, but the 3t in the 3lz3t combo missed rotation of more than 1/4 revolutions.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-27-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    But the thing is that I don’t know if that +3 GOE was really a wrong-button pressing or the judge deliberately favoring Takahashi, since that judge gave Takahashi highest GOE on pretty much all elements. S/he could be favoring Takahashi. Plus, I think the scoring needs to be fair. For instance, Fernandez got +0.86 in GOE (a range of 0 to +1) for his 3a and he only had a slightly weak landing. The judges should give him +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects and then -1 for that slightly weak landing, thus ending up with a range of 0 to +1 GOE. By that logic, Takahashi could get +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects, but the judges should really have -2 for his landing because it was much weaker than Fernandez’ landing. So Takahashi’s GOE should end up with a range of -1 to 0 instead of -1 to 1 and his GOE should have been negative.
    I think you're missing the point. GOE is supposed to be fairly discretionary. Even the rules say they are "general recommendations" as opposed to bright-line rules. As long as the GOEs are within a reasonable range, I don't get what the fuss is.

    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    That 3lz3t was so obviously under-rotated that anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it. Since you seem to know the rules well, I think you just need to watch Takahashi’s SP video one more time and you’ll see that the 3t in that combo is as under-rotated as the second 4t in his LP. Your posts have good logic .
    So...no screenshot, no argument for where/when the blade hit the ice, no assertions of any real substance whatsoever besides a simple blanket statement of "anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it." Oh, and apparently I'm biased because I don't agree with you about something as subjective as armchair UR calls, which are dependent on external factors such as camera angles, quality of video, and split-second judgment calls on things like when a skateblade hits the ice. I thought you wanted to have a real discussion here, but clearly I was wrong.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-27-2012 at 01:25 AM.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I think you're missing the point. GOE is supposed to be fairly discretionary. Even the rules say they are "general recommendations" as opposed to bright-line rules. As long as the GOEs are within a reasonable range, I don't get what the fuss is.
    But Takahashi’s GOEs for that 3a are not within a reasonable range. With that weak landing his 3a should not have received +1 GOEs and certainly not that +3 GOE, especially if you compare it with Fernandez’ 0 to +1 GOEs. And yes, the scoring needs to be fair. As you know, I was replying to let’s talk, who always argued that Takahashi’s PCS should be X points over other skaters, otherwise she thinks it’s not fair. If Takahashi’s PCS is constantly compared to other skaters’ PCSs to see if the scoring is fair, then the GOEs should also be compared for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    So...no screenshot, no argument for where/when the blade hit the ice, no assertions of any real substance whatsoever besides a simple blanket statement of "anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it." Oh, and apparently I'm biased because I don't agree with you about something as subjective as armchair UR calls, which are dependent on external factors such as camera angles, quality of video, and split-second judgment calls on things like when a skateblade hits the ice. I thought you wanted to have a real discussion here, but clearly I was wrong.
    UR calls are not subjective. They’re guided by strict rules. Anything having to do with technique is not subjective. Maybe the IN mark in the PCS is the only thing that’s subjective. Other things like SS, TR, weak landing and UR calls are not subjective. No matter what camera angles, a weak landing is a weak landing, and an URed jump is an URed jump. It’s like you say Takahashi’s 3a has a weak landing and someone tells you “no, it’s not weakly landed because I don't think it is. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise? If you don’t provide that, then you’re not having a real discussion.” I was like when I saw your request because Takahashi’s 3lz3t< was as obvious as his weakly landed 3a.

    If you think someone needs a screenshot or whatsoever evidence to show the obviously under-roatated 3lz3t and 4t, then maybe you should take screenshots of the 3lz3t and the second 4t in the LP to show that why you think the second 4t is < but the 3lz3t is fully rotated?

  6. #141
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    Just finished watching Hanyu, Takahashi, and Fernandez's SPs. I agree with the placement. The twice record breaking SP from Hanyu has left me some unsatisfactory. Are you sure that this is the best ever SP from the men?! However, by studying in details of the protocols, I can't find anything even in nitpicking fashion except that 9.25 in SS. Hanyu's performance could be compared with Patrick Chan's record breaking SP performance at 2012 Canadian Nationals. So yes, Hanyu is the rightful world record holder for SP.

    Takahashi was brilliant in performance! I don't mind at all that a flawed Takahashi was placed higher than Fernandez. Like Fernandez as well. 86.23 was great! But somehow, I felt his SP was too long and never ending.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-26-2012 at 01:46 PM.

  7. #142
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Folks, please remember to keep the bickering about each other out of the threads. Use the ignore feature, report posts that are offensive but do not respond and take a thread down! Once both sides get at it, it makes it 10 times worse for everyone. If you have a personal issue with another poster resolve it in PMs, don't let every one suffer through the needless bickering.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    But Takahashi’s GOEs for that 3a are not within a reasonable range. With that weak landing his 3a should not have received +1 GOEs and certainly not that +3 GOE, especially if you compare it with Fernandez’ 0 to +1 GOEs. And yes, the scoring needs to be fair. As you know, I was replying to let’s talk, who always argued that Takahashi’s PCS should be X points over other skaters, otherwise she thinks it’s not fair. If Takahashi’s PCS is constantly compared to other skaters’ PCSs to see if the scoring is fair, then the GOEs should also be compared for that reason.
    I implied the +3 GOE was unwarranted (it totally was). I thought -1 to 1 GOE was reasonable and explained why, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    UR calls are not subjective. They’re guided by strict rules. Anything having to do with technique is not subjective. Maybe the IN mark in the PCS is the only thing that’s subjective. Other things like SS, TR, weak landing and UR calls are not subjective. No matter what camera angles, a weak landing is a weak landing, and an URed jump is an URed jump. It’s like you say Takahashi’s 3a has a weak landing and someone tells you “no, it’s not weakly landed because I don't think it is. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise? If you don’t provide that, then you’re not having a real discussion.” I was like when I saw your request because Takahashi’s 3lz3t< was as obvious as his weakly landed 3a.

    If you think someone needs a screenshot or whatsoever evidence to show the obviously under-roatated 3lz3t and 4t, then maybe you should take screenshots of the 3lz3t and the second 4t in the LP to show that why you think the second 4t is < but the 3lz3t is fully rotated?
    Do you seriously believe UR calls are not at least somewhat subjective? If so, why is there so much inconsistency among tech panels across events? Why are there stricter tech callers like Shin Amano who give out UR calls like candy, while at the same time we have the ladies tech panel at last year's 4CC, which was so lenient on not only blatant URs spotted in real time but also wrong-edge calls? Why do we have hundreds of pages on Goldenskate arguing about whether a particular UR call is warranted or not? Why does the ISU's own official tech handbook state that tech callers must keep into account camera angles into their UR calls? Why do you think the official ISU policy is to give skaters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to "doubtful cases"? Surely there would be no doubtful cases if UR calls were not subjective? Are things so black and white? And your point about weak landings--of course a weak landing is a weak landing. Being able to tell that a weak landing exists is fairly objective--but deciding how much the weak should be penalized is not. Why do you think the ISU allows judges a small range for deductions when it comes to weak landings? Why didn't they give a solid objective number to deduct for all weak landings? Because not all weak landings are the same in everyone's eyes, it's a subjective call to see how weak the landing is. The same, I'd argue, applies to many other technical things like SS and TR. Yeah, it's easy to say Skater X has better skating skills than Skater Y, but is it so easy and objective to say how much better Skater X is better than Skater Y? Is Skater X 0.25 better than Skater Y? Or is he 0.50 better? Reasonable minds may differ, and that's where subjectivity comes in.

    I asked for a screenshot or basically anything besides mere conclusory statements b/c whether Takahashi's 3Lz-3T was UR or not is not obvious to me. You keep saying it's obvious but I don't see it. It's definitely tight due to Takahashi's tendency to curl his landings after the back ends of his jump combinations, but looks just within rotation to me, and it's official ISU policy to give skaters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to doubtful cases....
    Last edited by evangeline; 11-27-2012 at 11:00 PM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    ^^ (Re deedee's #149 post): Ross may have gotten the idea for his sp costume from a costume Evan wore in a few preseason shows (designed by Vera Wang).
    Thanks a lot, Art&Sport, for your explaining about Miner's costume! But I still believe Miner's shirt needs to go.
    Same goes to Takahashi. Dai needs a new jacket and shirt which is as refined as his skating.

  10. #145
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Thanks a lot, Art&Sport, for your explaining about Miner's costume! But I still believe Miner's shirt needs to go.
    Same goes to Takahashi. Dai needs a new jacket and shirt which is as refined as his skating.
    You are funny deedee. Maybe Dai will change back to the white jacket that you loved so much.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    Maybe Dai will change back to the white jacket that you loved so much.
    Did 'I' really?! Which jacket do you like better (or, less), btw?

    I would not mind if Dai is to borrow either Taka's 'Cello songs' green shirt or Yuzuru's 'Parisian Walkways' grey shirt. Well, Dai has to rush to the tailor, to shorten the sleeves first though!
    As for SP, I actually do not care what he wears, as far as he hits a quad and all other elements, and can sell that program like no one else can.

    But as for his LP costume, I do care. I hope he will change it. At least no gloves, please. His skating and performance ability speak so much volume itself. He really does not need such flashy ala Russian-style costume I believe. So that non Dai fans can concentrate more on his skating, not calling him 'over-the-top'.
    However, I love the overall line of his LP costume, because it highlights Dai's much improved 'stretched-out' postures. I also like the gradation of white top down to black bottom. It sort of reflects angel and evil sides of the program perfectly, which I personally see in his music I Pagliacci. So, I would appreciate if he can remove those glittering stitches, purple color and gloves.

    Oops, wasn't this a 'Costume thread'? Sorry!

  12. #147
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    We have a Costumes thread!

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...light=COSTUMES

    You might wish to post costume stuff there! Comments get kind of lost here in the competition threads, once interest moves to the next event.

  13. #148
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    ^I actually preferred the white jacket because it is more in character of the Stroll than the red jacket. In the 1950's in the US a lot of Country & Western singing
    stars including Elvis Presley wore this type of jacket.

    As far as his LP costume, I am not crazy about it (it does show Dai's great form though) and IMO it does reflect the character of the program, but compared to
    some of other costumes especially Hanyu's LP and Machida's feathers Dai's LP costume is quite tame.

    ETA: Sorry Doris will try to keep on topic or move to Costume Thread.

  14. #149
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    That's OK; it can stay here

  15. #150
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    I didn’t like Daisuke’s programs at NHK, but I really liked his red jacket costume-I thought he looked hot in it! Maybe the red jacket looked better live than on tv.

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