I respectfully disagree. As a fan of all of the top men, Yuzuru's short program was pretty close to perfection and has a lot more to it than an amazing entrance to the axel. His jumps are secure and his spins were very good with wonderful transitions in between. I'm willing to bet that the difference between the top three men is their speed across the ice which is difficult to see in a video.
2012 NHK Men's Short Program SP
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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I respectfully disagree. As a fan of all of the top men, Yuzuru's short program was pretty close to perfection and has a lot more to it than an amazing entrance to the axel. His jumps are secure and his spins were very good with wonderful transitions in between. I'm willing to bet that the difference between the top three men is their speed across the ice which is difficult to see in a video.
I agree that Takahashi has the fastest step sequence, but one step sequence does not make a complete short program. Today Takahashi’s overall program was indeed slower than Yuzru. Yuzru was flying throughout the entire program, while Takahashi looked a bit labored and tense except the step sequence. If you look at Amodio, he also has fast and amazing step sequence, but his overall program is not fast and amazing. That’s the typical Morozovian skater – always nailing the step sequence but not possesing the same level of speed throughout the entire program. I guess Morozov influenced Takahashi in that way and today he doesn’t have Yuzru’s speed throughout.
You’re not the only one. I also think Yuzru was more artistic than Takahashi today. Yuzru is a real prodigy – technically and artistically.
However, with that said, I still don’t know if Yuzru can skate his LP well tomorrow due to his stamina. He may bomb the LP like SA.
ITA. Fernandez is losing points on spins, he really needs to work on them. Plus, he also needs to work on his skating skills. Any Japanese man has better skating skills than him. Takahashi, Yuzru, Kozuka, Oda, and Mura who’s only Japan #6 all have better SS than Fernandez. Amodio, Verner, even Jason Brown have better SS than Fernandez. And there are Patrick and Jeremy…
Not in the eyes of the judges obviously. Brian is doing a good job representing him. But he should not be allowed to travel with so many vodkas in his suitcase. Regardless of what we see, he has all of them judges liquored up! :yes::yes::yes:
Yup, no need to argue. Just rewatch them videos with a few shots and you'll agree more and more with the judges.
Nothing serious here, just being silly!
Luv the top three. Let the best man (or kid) win... It will be an interesting long to say the least.
Brian would have Canadian club and not vodka!!
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- Oct 25, 2012
I agree that when Dai is on, his performance, refinement, and overall presence are out of this world; but I think its important to distinguish between what each skater is capable of and what they actually do in a competition. Yuzuru oozed confidence and completely owned that program, while Dai didn't perform nearly to the best of his capabilities. Also keep in mind that SS is only 1 of 5 PCS categories: its only fair to reward Yuzuru for great INT, TR, PE and CH - plus his speed and flow (SS criteria) are nothing to scoff at. PCS isn't really the main reason for his lead anyway, Hanyu is 9 points ahead of Fernandez but less than 3 points of that comes from PCS.
Hopefully Dai bounces back with a great performance in the free, and Javier and Yuzuru skate back to back great programs. :yay:
^I agree with everything you wrote. It must have been extremely hard for Daisuke today skating after Yuzuru. I love Daisuke, and I hope that this won't put him down too much, but I'm wondering....and his free this season doesn't have the quality of last season, imho.
I loved Daisukes step sequence, sooo good. Unless Yuzuru bombs again ála Skate America I think it will be hard to beat him.
Could it be possible that Dai will rework his program if he loses to Hanyu here? Oh, my heart is in my mouth...I admire Hanyu but love Dai's skating so much.
Another thought: Imagine Japan's lavish good fortune right now...they may actually end up in a position where one of the greatest skaters of the past decade is only their second-best skater. Now, that's a skating dynasty!
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- Jun 3, 2009
Hanyu: Just spitting the GOEs throughout, wasn't he? The ease of his jumps is just insane. The marks were high but not onerous or over-the-top (except maybe the final spin). I don't think he should be scored as high on skating skills as he his, but not so much that it makes a difference. It'll be interesting to see how he does in the LP - he looked out of breath by the end. That might be the only hope for any of the other men to get close. And if he does get the salchow down..... well, his hopes of world domination might come true.
Takahashi: The program ends remarkably well, but overall it's not his strongest effort. The judges were far stingier than I expected, actually - a king in front of his homeland and all that, and I would've scored him a little lower, but not a lot. A worthy third place skate but I'm okay with a barely second.
Fernandez: Should've been a couple points higher. Probably my favourite choreography from the top three. Lovely work throughout.
Also, can we just thank the Japanese camera crew for understanding how to film skating? And the long program will be fascinating.
Takahashi: The program ends remarkably well, but overall it's not his strongest effort. The judges were far stingier than I expected, actually - a king in front of his homeland and all that, and I would've scored him a little lower, but not a lot. A worthy third place skate but I'm okay with a barely second.
Fernandez: Should've been a couple points higher. Probably my favourite choreography from the top three. Lovely work throughout.
Also, can we just thank the Japanese camera crew for understanding how to film skating? And the long program will be fascinating.
I especially enjoy the shots that follow the skater from above... you really get a sense of the skater's speed and area covered.
Overall, I am fairly impressed with Hanyu and Fernandez. Coincidentally, both are coached by Brian Orser in Canada - in direct competition with Canada's men's world champion who is trying to win the country its first Olympic Gold medal in men's figure skating. Something, Orser himself bitterly lost just over 20 years. The irony is quite striking. Both Hanyu and Fernandez seem happy with Brian so that's what matters and I am happy to see his students doing so well whereas Adam Rippon who changed coaches gazillion time is still stuck blaming his coaches but no results.
Some comments :
Richard Dornbush has what it takes to become the number 1 US man given Jeremy Abbott's strugles and Evan Lysacek's belated return. The U.S. used to have such a deep field in the men's but nowadays, the question seems to be whether the U.S. can hold down to its two spots in the World / Olympic team for next year and that is quite sad.
Kevin Reynolds still has the same issues with his jumps, namingly not enough height or power. If the panel has to question his jumps every time, then he will be lucky to get them ractified and receive positive GOE. I think people have told him to consider coaching change, among other things but he is very stubborn. The way he is skating, Canada remains a one man show as far as the men's figure skating is concerned.
Javier Fernandez has improved his presentation tremendously. He probably will never be as smooth as some of the other more gifted skaters when it comes to skating skills or dazzling footwork / spins; however he has a captivating presence and highly expressive style. So long as he develops better consistency in his elements and continue to work on his showmanship, who says you need to be most gifted person to win the Olympic Gold medal? Just ask Shizuka Arakawa or Evan Lysacek.
Daisuke Takahashi : Still the same rock star as he has always been. Not his best performance but the guy still knows how to give a show. Concerned about his stagnant technical skill, not much improvement that I can see and instead, seems to be deteriorating. Without a consistent Quad and relatively advanced age, there is only so much lift the reputation can support. I don't see him winning in Sochi because there are so many other younger men in his own country who can challenge him for a spot on the Japanese team. If I am a Takahashi fan, I'd be worried.
Yuzuru Hanyu : Captivating skate and the program really suited him. He skated with a lot of passion, maybe just a little over the top sometimes but that may just be youthful exuberance. Very impressed with his executed elements, and I feel the GOE are well deserved though would caution using them as a benchmark as that can change given a different panel, different cirumstances. Not doing a Quad toe - Triple toe combo can be seen as the difference when a judge really wants to nitpick in a close competition. On paper, all jumps are the same but psychological impacts shouldn't be ignored, judges are human as well. Hanyu's biggest questions are the LP, stamina and what happens when he makes an error? Peaking too soon should be concerning and as well as becoming known as the Elene G. of male skating, should be an interesting LP to see if he can do better than his SA FS.
Some comments :
Richard Dornbush has what it takes to become the number 1 US man given Jeremy Abbott's strugles and Evan Lysacek's belated return. The U.S. used to have such a deep field in the men's but nowadays, the question seems to be whether the U.S. can hold down to its two spots in the World / Olympic team for next year and that is quite sad.
Kevin Reynolds still has the same issues with his jumps, namingly not enough height or power. If the panel has to question his jumps every time, then he will be lucky to get them ractified and receive positive GOE. I think people have told him to consider coaching change, among other things but he is very stubborn. The way he is skating, Canada remains a one man show as far as the men's figure skating is concerned.
Javier Fernandez has improved his presentation tremendously. He probably will never be as smooth as some of the other more gifted skaters when it comes to skating skills or dazzling footwork / spins; however he has a captivating presence and highly expressive style. So long as he develops better consistency in his elements and continue to work on his showmanship, who says you need to be most gifted person to win the Olympic Gold medal? Just ask Shizuka Arakawa or Evan Lysacek.
Daisuke Takahashi : Still the same rock star as he has always been. Not his best performance but the guy still knows how to give a show. Concerned about his stagnant technical skill, not much improvement that I can see and instead, seems to be deteriorating. Without a consistent Quad and relatively advanced age, there is only so much lift the reputation can support. I don't see him winning in Sochi because there are so many other younger men in his own country who can challenge him for a spot on the Japanese team. If I am a Takahashi fan, I'd be worried.
Yuzuru Hanyu : Captivating skate and the program really suited him. He skated with a lot of passion, maybe just a little over the top sometimes but that may just be youthful exuberance. Very impressed with his executed elements, and I feel the GOE are well deserved though would caution using them as a benchmark as that can change given a different panel, different cirumstances. Not doing a Quad toe - Triple toe combo can be seen as the difference when a judge really wants to nitpick in a close competition. On paper, all jumps are the same but psychological impacts shouldn't be ignored, judges are human as well. Hanyu's biggest questions are the LP, stamina and what happens when he makes an error? Peaking too soon should be concerning and as well as becoming known as the Elene G. of male skating, should be an interesting LP to see if he can do better than his SA FS.
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- Nov 13, 2012
I'm curious - a question for those of you who are far more knowledgeable about these things than I - if Hanyu, Takahashi and Fernandez all end up on the podium, will they be clear for the GPF? Or is there some scenario in which one or other of them won't be? Any elucidation gratefully received. 
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- Jun 3, 2009
I'm curious - a question for those of you who are far more knowledgeable about these things than I - if Hanyu, Takahashi and Fernandez all end up on the podium, will they be clear for the GPF? Or is there some scenario in which one or other of them won't be? Any elucidation gratefully received.
Yes. As long as Hanyu and Takahashi are fourth or above, and as long as Fernandez is 5th or above, they're in the GPF with 22 points. If Hanyu or Takahashi are 5th, it comes down to total scores (or if Fernandez is in sixth).
For all intents and purposes, their entry to the GPF is stamped as long as they skate the long program.
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- Sep 10, 2009
You are probably right on this one. I agree with all the critics expressed on this thread about Hanyu being overscored. Some mixture of short track, speed skating and arms moving like sleeves of shirt. What a disappointment after last year's magnificient progs. Not a surprised that the praise of Hanyu comes from those who often praise overscored Chan with pretty much the same meaningless skating. Yuzu'z PCS just 0.11 lower Dai is such a lame attempt of cooking that I won't even bother to comment it. Last year Javi's PCS also jumped up drastically after he moved to Orser while his components were not as good as the inflated score claimed. As for Javi and Dai, the Spanish had better jumps but lower level of spins and seqs, and his body was too stiff, not sharp enough for this prog. So, I agree with the placement and the fact that the difference of points between Dai and Javi is small, leaving them both the chance to figure things out in FS. What I don't get is how come that Hanyu elements are that much higher scored of 10 GOE than Javi. Judging from Hanyu's interview it seems like Orser himself considers Yuzu as #1 for Brian's career maker (like Yuna was) and not Javi's rival at all. Why judges should see it differently. All these games are pathetic. I agree with the general placement but the difference between Yuzu and two others no way should as much. What world record? The baby didn't even challenge a quad combo, the thing that a bunch of skaters can land, and the thing that Yag with Plu did in SP more than a decade ago. One of features of inflation is a huge gap between Chan and rivals after SP thanks to manipulation with GOE and PCS, just in case if he makes mistakes in FS, such gap will help him to stay on top. That kills the intrigue of the competion in advance. Pretty much the same we observe here. So, yeah, if we have to be fair, then Yuzuflation has the same right to exist as inflation
. It must one hell of coincidence that it started after Yuzu moved to Canada. 
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- Mar 9, 2011
MEN'S SHORT PROGRAM - VIDEOS & RESULT
1. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 95.32 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
2. Daisuke TAKAHASHI (JPN) - 87.47 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
3. Javier FERNANDEZ (ESP) - 86.23 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
4. Ross MINER (USA) - 72.40 Short Program
5. Kevin REYNOLDS (CAN) - 70.20 Short Program
6. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 70.05 Short Program
7. Sergei VORONOV (RUS) - 70.03 Short Program
8. Adam RIPPON (USA) - 67.89 Short Program
9. Andrei ROGOZINE (CAN) - 67.70 Short Program
WD Daisuke MURAKAMI (JPN) Short Program
1. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 95.32 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
2. Daisuke TAKAHASHI (JPN) - 87.47 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
3. Javier FERNANDEZ (ESP) - 86.23 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
4. Ross MINER (USA) - 72.40 Short Program
5. Kevin REYNOLDS (CAN) - 70.20 Short Program
6. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 70.05 Short Program
7. Sergei VORONOV (RUS) - 70.03 Short Program
8. Adam RIPPON (USA) - 67.89 Short Program
9. Andrei ROGOZINE (CAN) - 67.70 Short Program
WD Daisuke MURAKAMI (JPN) Short Program
You are probably right on this one. I agree with all the critics expressed on this thread about Hanyu being overscored. Some mixture of short track, speed skating and arms moving like sleeves of shirt. What a disappointment after last year's magnificient progs. Not a surprised that the praise of Hanyu comes from those who often praise overscored Chan with pretty much the same meaningless skating. Yuzu'z PCS just 0.11 lower Dai is such a lame attempt of cooking that I won't even bother to comment it. Last year Javi's PCS also jumped up drastically after he moved to Orser while his components were not as good as the inflated score claimed. As for Javi and Dai, the Spanish had better jumps but lower level of spins and seqs, and his body was too stiff, not sharp enough for this prog. So, I agree with the placement and the fact that the difference of points between Dai and Javi is small, leaving them both the chance to figure things out in FS. What I don't get is how come that Hanyu elements are that much higher scored of 10 GOE than Javi. Judging from Hanyu's interview it seems like Orser himself considers Yuzu as #1 for Brian's career maker (like Yuna was) and not Javi's rival at all. Why judges should see it differently. All these games are pathetic. I agree with the general placement but the difference between Yuzu and two others no way should as much. What world record? The baby didn't even challenge a quad combo, the thing that a bunch of skaters can land, and the thing that Yag with Plu did in SP more than a decade ago. One of features of inflation is a huge gap between Chan and rivals after SP thanks to manipulation with GOE and PCS, just in case if he makes mistakes in FS, such gap will help him to stay on top. That kills the intrigue of the competion in advance. Pretty much the same we observe here. So, yeah, if we have to be fair, then Yuzuflation has the same right to exist as inflation
Sigh. First of all what does a Quad combo have to do with it. You realize theres no bonus for doing the harder combo so he gets the same base value doing a single quad toe and a 3lutz/3toe than if he did the 3lutz sep. In fact Hanyu ended up with a higher bonus because he put the 3lutz/3toe in the bonus section of his program...
I dont see how Chan inflation occurs. First of all the complaints are when Chan falls 3 times and gets about 10 more points in PCS than anyone else. In this case Hanyu didn't even have the highest PCS in either phase of the competition. Hes a better skater than Fernandez he deserves higher PCS. One can quibble about Dai getting higher but Dai was not perfect in that program.
As for Hanyus GOE. That program has complex transitions, and the jumps are textbook. His jumps were better landed than Fernandez they are bigger and better than Dais. And he had transitions. Most men when they do a single quad they break the rules by doing no footwork see Kozuka. Hanyu actually does footwork into his. He had that ridiculous entrance into the 3axel and I believe something going into his combination too.
That program is jam packed with transitions and designed to get a lot of points..
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- Sep 10, 2009
Preciely, my dear! That's why this sport is losing its popularty thanks to people like you who are advocating for lesser rewards for more difficult elements. You said yourself that it's a "harder combo". But what rewards we have in SP according to your beloved CoP: 4T-3T combo+3L= 14.40+6.00=20.40; 4T+3L-3T combo=10.30+10.10=20.40, i.e. the same points for challenging a harder combo 4T-3T and challenging 3L-3T that some junior girls can do
. What can be more laughable. Sport has always been about achivements, doing something tougher and new. It's sick to see how you call yourself things "harder" and yet you see nothing wrong that athletes are not properly rewarded for doing harder things. World record is smth. that has never done before a priori. Things that are called "world record" now according to CoP is in fact poorly recycled stuff that some dudes could do years ago. : Who cares what you see or not. It happened and that's it. Overscored GOE for the jumps that Javi didn't do worse but got lesser GOE, pretyy much the same PCS as Dai (what a joke), so the soup of 10 points difference after SP is cooked, just like in classic inflation.
Preciely, my dear! That's why this sport is losing its popularty thanks to people like you who are advocating for lesser rewards for more difficult elements. You said yourself that it's a "harder combo". But what rewards we have in SP according to your beloved CoP: 4T-3T combo+3L= 14.40+6.00=20.40; 4T+3L-3T combo=10.30+10.10=20.40, i.e. the same points for challenging a harder combo 4T-3T and challenging 3L-3T that some junior girls can do
Who cares what you see or not. It happened and that's it. Overscored GOE for the jumps that Javi didn't do worse but got lesser GOE, pretyy much the same PCS as Dai (what a joke), so the soup of 10 points difference after SP is cooked, just like in classic inflation.
First of all where did I say that I agreed about how combos are scored. I would see quad combos scored higher. However right now the system is the system. I could argue that there is a certain difficulty though putting footwork in between an actual quad. This being said as for the GOE. Hanyu for example had a very difficult entrance into his 3axel and fairly got huge GOE, many would disagree the quality of Fernandez's 3axel was better let alone the entrance being as hard. Its obvious you have a thing against Hanyu.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
I think Takahashi's marks for his 3A in the SP were fine. Here is the GOE he received:
1 0 0 3 -1 1 -1 -1 1
Except for the extreme outlier (the +3 GOE which I'm inclined to think was probably a case of wrong-button pressing on the judge's part), I found that these marks were in range of the GOE guidelines as listed in the tech handbook.
The positive GOE guidelines are below. I argue Takahashi's 3A in his NHK SP fulfilled the GOE bulletpoints I bolded:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure
According to the guidelines (which are admittedly somewhat discretionary), judges are supposed to give +1 GOE for 2 bulletpoints, +2 GOE for 4 bulletpoints, and +3 GOE for 6 or more bulletpoints.
As Takahashi fulfilled 3 bulletpoints, judges have the discretion to give him around +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects for his 3A. The weak landing is (according to the tech guidelines) is supposed to be penalized with a reduction of -1 to -2 GOE (again, whether the judge chooses to subtract -1 or -2 from the overall GOE is discretionary and I guess depends on the egregiousness of the weak landing). So if you add all the GOE up and take into consideration all these factors, a range of -1 to +1 GOE for his 3A is actually quite reasonable according to the rules.
If you want to look at the rules yourself, they can be found here: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3589
Also, I don't think Takahashi's 3Lz-3T in his SP should have been called < at all. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise?
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But the thing is that I don’t know if that +3 GOE was really a wrong-button pressing or the judge deliberately favoring Takahashi, since that judge gave Takahashi highest GOE on pretty much all elements. S/he could be favoring Takahashi. Plus, I think the scoring needs to be fair. For instance, Fernandez got +0.86 in GOE (a range of 0 to +1) for his 3a and he only had a slightly weak landing. The judges should give him +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects and then -1 for that slightly weak landing, thus ending up with a range of 0 to +1 GOE. By that logic, Takahashi could get +1 or +2 GOE for the positive aspects, but the judges should really have -2 for his landing because it was much weaker than Fernandez’ landing. So Takahashi’s GOE should end up with a range of -1 to 0 instead of -1 to 1 and his GOE should have been negative.
That 3lz3t was so obviously under-rotated that anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it. Since you seem to know the rules well, I think you just need to watch Takahashi’s SP video one more time and you’ll see that the 3t in that combo is as under-rotated as the second 4t in his LP. Your posts have good logic.
I’m not trying to be nitpicking here because if I want to pick on Takahashi then it would be easier to pick on his 4t, which was often called < or <<. I’ve seen many people complaining about how he got lucky with 4t not called <, but I did not choose to talk about that 4t here because it was not under-rotated. I think people often question Takahashi’s 4t because it’s habitually < or <<, so when someone questions it then others would have the preconceived idea and then believe that it was < again. Takahashi’s 3lz3t OTOH was not often called <, and people usually would not question his 3lz3t. But I watched the SP and saw Takahashi’s 4t was indeed fully rotated, but the 3t in the 3lz3t combo missed rotation of more than 1/4 revolutions.
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
I think you're missing the point. GOE is supposed to be fairly discretionary. Even the rules say they are "general recommendations" as opposed to bright-line rules. As long as the GOEs are within a reasonable range, I don't get what the fuss is.
So...no screenshot, no argument for where/when the blade hit the ice, no assertions of any real substance whatsoever besides a simple blanket statement of "anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it." Oh, and apparently I'm biased because I don't agree with you about something as subjective as armchair UR calls, which are dependent on external factors such as camera angles, quality of video, and split-second judgment calls on things like when a skateblade hits the ice. I thought you wanted to have a real discussion here, but clearly I was wrong.
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But Takahashi’s GOEs for that 3a are not within a reasonable range. With that weak landing his 3a should not have received +1 GOEs and certainly not that +3 GOE, especially if you compare it with Fernandez’ 0 to +1 GOEs. And yes, the scoring needs to be fair. As you know, I was replying to let’s talk, who always argued that Takahashi’s PCS should be X points over other skaters, otherwise she thinks it’s not fair. If Takahashi’s PCS is constantly compared to other skaters’ PCSs to see if the scoring is fair, then the GOEs should also be compared for that reason.
UR calls are not subjective. They’re guided by strict rules. Anything having to do with technique is not subjective. Maybe the IN mark in the PCS is the only thing that’s subjective. Other things like SS, TR, weak landing and UR calls are not subjective. No matter what camera angles, a weak landing is a weak landing, and an URed jump is an URed jump. It’s like you say Takahashi’s 3a has a weak landing and someone tells you “no, it’s not weakly landed because I don't think it is. Do you have a screenshot or something showing otherwise? If you don’t provide that, then you’re not having a real discussion.” I was likeSo...no screenshot, no argument for where/when the blade hit the ice, no assertions of any real substance whatsoever besides a simple blanket statement of "anyone with any knowledge of how UR rules work should notice it." Oh, and apparently I'm biased because I don't agree with you about something as subjective as armchair UR calls, which are dependent on external factors such as camera angles, quality of video, and split-second judgment calls on things like when a skateblade hits the ice. I thought you wanted to have a real discussion here, but clearly I was wrong.
when I saw your request because Takahashi’s 3lz3t< was as obvious as his weakly landed 3a.If you think someone needs a screenshot or whatsoever evidence to show the obviously under-roatated 3lz3t and 4t, then maybe you should take screenshots of the 3lz3t and the second 4t in the LP to show that why you think the second 4t is < but the 3lz3t is fully rotated?
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