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Thread: 2012 NHK Men's Short Program SP

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I think Hanyu is amazing but he does not have the refinement or air of confidence and surety as much as Dai or Patrick - yet. Give him time. His marks do seem high COMPARATIVELY to Dai, Fernandez and skaters like Chan. There is a difference between being a fan and looking critically at the skating. He is amazing; especially his short and ana amazing entrance into the axel but one entrance does not make a skater. We'll see how he does in the in the FS - the programme isn't as strong as his short.

    I respectfully disagree. As a fan of all of the top men, Yuzuru's short program was pretty close to perfection and has a lot more to it than an amazing entrance to the axel. His jumps are secure and his spins were very good with wonderful transitions in between. I'm willing to bet that the difference between the top three men is their speed across the ice which is difficult to see in a video.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoja View Post
    Have you seen Daisuke's steps? No one is faster!
    I agree that Takahashi has the fastest step sequence, but one step sequence does not make a complete short program. Today Takahashi’s overall program was indeed slower than Yuzru. Yuzru was flying throughout the entire program, while Takahashi looked a bit labored and tense except the step sequence. If you look at Amodio, he also has fast and amazing step sequence, but his overall program is not fast and amazing. That’s the typical Morozovian skater – always nailing the step sequence but not possesing the same level of speed throughout the entire program. I guess Morozov influenced Takahashi in that way and today he doesn’t have Yuzru’s speed throughout.

    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Daisuke: I'm sorry to say this and I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but he looked a bit "less" artistically, compared immediatly after Hanyu, but maybe it's just because of the technical mistakes... However, I don't really like his programs this yeat but his step sequence is still the best in the world!
    You’re not the only one. I also think Yuzru was more artistic than Takahashi today. Yuzru is a real prodigy – technically and artistically.

    However, with that said, I still don’t know if Yuzru can skate his LP well tomorrow due to his stamina. He may bomb the LP like SA.

    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Fernandez: I'm happy he finally landed that 3-3 cleanily, but he has to work on his spins...
    ITA. Fernandez is losing points on spins, he really needs to work on them. Plus, he also needs to work on his skating skills. Any Japanese man has better skating skills than him. Takahashi, Yuzru, Kozuka, Oda, and Mura who’s only Japan #6 all have better SS than Fernandez. Amodio, Verner, even Jason Brown have better SS than Fernandez. And there are Patrick and Jeremy…

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by bixby View Post
    Not in the eyes of the judges obviously. Brian is doing a good job representing him. But he should not be allowed to travel with so many vodkas in his suitcase. Regardless of what we see, he has all of them judges liquored up!

    Yup, no need to argue. Just rewatch them videos with a few shots and you'll agree more and more with the judges.

    Nothing serious here, just being silly!

    Luv the top three. Let the best man (or kid) win... It will be an interesting long to say the least.
    Brian would have Canadian club and not vodka!!

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I think Hanyu is amazing but he does not have the refinement or air of confidence and surety as much as Dai or Patrick - yet. Give him time. His marks do seem high COMPARATIVELY to Dai, Fernandez and skaters like Chan. There is a difference between being a fan and looking critically at the skating. He is amazing; especially his short and ana amazing entrance into the axel but one entrance does not make a skater. We'll see how he does in the in the FS - the programme isn't as strong as his short.
    I agree that when Dai is on, his performance, refinement, and overall presence are out of this world; but I think its important to distinguish between what each skater is capable of and what they actually do in a competition. Yuzuru oozed confidence and completely owned that program, while Dai didn't perform nearly to the best of his capabilities. Also keep in mind that SS is only 1 of 5 PCS categories: its only fair to reward Yuzuru for great INT, TR, PE and CH - plus his speed and flow (SS criteria) are nothing to scoff at. PCS isn't really the main reason for his lead anyway, Hanyu is 9 points ahead of Fernandez but less than 3 points of that comes from PCS.

    Hopefully Dai bounces back with a great performance in the free, and Javier and Yuzuru skate back to back great programs.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaiKatze View Post
    ^I agree with everything you wrote. It must have been extremely hard for Daisuke today skating after Yuzuru. I love Daisuke, and I hope that this won't put him down too much, but I'm wondering....and his free this season doesn't have the quality of last season, imho. :(

    I loved Daisukes step sequence, sooo good. Unless Yuzuru bombs again ála Skate America I think it will be hard to beat him.
    Could it be possible that Dai will rework his program if he loses to Hanyu here? Oh, my heart is in my mouth...I admire Hanyu but love Dai's skating so much.

    Another thought: Imagine Japan's lavish good fortune right now...they may actually end up in a position where one of the greatest skaters of the past decade is only their second-best skater. Now, that's a skating dynasty!

  6. #126
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    Hanyu: Just spitting the GOEs throughout, wasn't he? The ease of his jumps is just insane. The marks were high but not onerous or over-the-top (except maybe the final spin). I don't think he should be scored as high on skating skills as he his, but not so much that it makes a difference. It'll be interesting to see how he does in the LP - he looked out of breath by the end. That might be the only hope for any of the other men to get close. And if he does get the salchow down..... well, his hopes of world domination might come true.

    Takahashi: The program ends remarkably well, but overall it's not his strongest effort. The judges were far stingier than I expected, actually - a king in front of his homeland and all that, and I would've scored him a little lower, but not a lot. A worthy third place skate but I'm okay with a barely second.

    Fernandez: Should've been a couple points higher. Probably my favourite choreography from the top three. Lovely work throughout.

    Also, can we just thank the Japanese camera crew for understanding how to film skating? And the long program will be fascinating.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post

    Also, can we just thank the Japanese camera crew for understanding how to film skating? And the long program will be fascinating.
    I especially enjoy the shots that follow the skater from above... you really get a sense of the skater's speed and area covered.

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    Overall, I am fairly impressed with Hanyu and Fernandez. Coincidentally, both are coached by Brian Orser in Canada - in direct competition with Canada's men's world champion who is trying to win the country its first Olympic Gold medal in men's figure skating. Something, Orser himself bitterly lost just over 20 years. The irony is quite striking. Both Hanyu and Fernandez seem happy with Brian so that's what matters and I am happy to see his students doing so well whereas Adam Rippon who changed coaches gazillion time is still stuck blaming his coaches but no results.

    Some comments :

    Richard Dornbush has what it takes to become the number 1 US man given Jeremy Abbott's strugles and Evan Lysacek's belated return. The U.S. used to have such a deep field in the men's but nowadays, the question seems to be whether the U.S. can hold down to its two spots in the World / Olympic team for next year and that is quite sad.

    Kevin Reynolds still has the same issues with his jumps, namingly not enough height or power. If the panel has to question his jumps every time, then he will be lucky to get them ractified and receive positive GOE. I think people have told him to consider coaching change, among other things but he is very stubborn. The way he is skating, Canada remains a one man show as far as the men's figure skating is concerned.

    Javier Fernandez has improved his presentation tremendously. He probably will never be as smooth as some of the other more gifted skaters when it comes to skating skills or dazzling footwork / spins; however he has a captivating presence and highly expressive style. So long as he develops better consistency in his elements and continue to work on his showmanship, who says you need to be most gifted person to win the Olympic Gold medal? Just ask Shizuka Arakawa or Evan Lysacek.

    Daisuke Takahashi : Still the same rock star as he has always been. Not his best performance but the guy still knows how to give a show. Concerned about his stagnant technical skill, not much improvement that I can see and instead, seems to be deteriorating. Without a consistent Quad and relatively advanced age, there is only so much lift the reputation can support. I don't see him winning in Sochi because there are so many other younger men in his own country who can challenge him for a spot on the Japanese team. If I am a Takahashi fan, I'd be worried.

    Yuzuru Hanyu : Captivating skate and the program really suited him. He skated with a lot of passion, maybe just a little over the top sometimes but that may just be youthful exuberance. Very impressed with his executed elements, and I feel the GOE are well deserved though would caution using them as a benchmark as that can change given a different panel, different cirumstances. Not doing a Quad toe - Triple toe combo can be seen as the difference when a judge really wants to nitpick in a close competition. On paper, all jumps are the same but psychological impacts shouldn't be ignored, judges are human as well. Hanyu's biggest questions are the LP, stamina and what happens when he makes an error? Peaking too soon should be concerning and as well as becoming known as the Elene G. of male skating, should be an interesting LP to see if he can do better than his SA FS.

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    I still don't get it. Not sure why Hanyu is scored so high. I agree with the placements but not the scores. In relation to the other men I would have giving him at most an 88-90. And Dai should be third not second.

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    I'm curious - a question for those of you who are far more knowledgeable about these things than I - if Hanyu, Takahashi and Fernandez all end up on the podium, will they be clear for the GPF? Or is there some scenario in which one or other of them won't be? Any elucidation gratefully received.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    I'm curious - a question for those of you who are far more knowledgeable about these things than I - if Hanyu, Takahashi and Fernandez all end up on the podium, will they be clear for the GPF? Or is there some scenario in which one or other of them won't be? Any elucidation gratefully received.
    Yes. As long as Hanyu and Takahashi are fourth or above, and as long as Fernandez is 5th or above, they're in the GPF with 22 points. If Hanyu or Takahashi are 5th, it comes down to total scores (or if Fernandez is in sixth).

    For all intents and purposes, their entry to the GPF is stamped as long as they skate the long program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    With all the anit Chan and Chanflation I think we have to be fair. Hanyu should be treated the same on this board if we were fair;
    You are probably right on this one. I agree with all the critics expressed on this thread about Hanyu being overscored. Some mixture of short track, speed skating and arms moving like sleeves of shirt. What a disappointment after last year's magnificient progs. Not a surprised that the praise of Hanyu comes from those who often praise overscored Chan with pretty much the same meaningless skating. Yuzu'z PCS just 0.11 lower Dai is such a lame attempt of cooking that I won't even bother to comment it. Last year Javi's PCS also jumped up drastically after he moved to Orser while his components were not as good as the inflated score claimed. As for Javi and Dai, the Spanish had better jumps but lower level of spins and seqs, and his body was too stiff, not sharp enough for this prog. So, I agree with the placement and the fact that the difference of points between Dai and Javi is small, leaving them both the chance to figure things out in FS. What I don't get is how come that Hanyu elements are that much higher scored of 10 GOE than Javi. Judging from Hanyu's interview it seems like Orser himself considers Yuzu as #1 for Brian's career maker (like Yuna was) and not Javi's rival at all. Why judges should see it differently. All these games are pathetic. I agree with the general placement but the difference between Yuzu and two others no way should as much. What world record? The baby didn't even challenge a quad combo, the thing that a bunch of skaters can land, and the thing that Yag with Plu did in SP more than a decade ago. One of features of Chanflation is a huge gap between Chan and rivals after SP thanks to manipulation with GOE and PCS, just in case if he makes mistakes in FS, such gap will help him to stay on top. That kills the intrigue of the competion in advance. Pretty much the same we observe here. So, yeah, if we have to be fair, then Yuzuflation has the same right to exist as Chanflation . It must one hell of coincidence that it started after Yuzu moved to Canada.

  13. #133
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    MEN'S SHORT PROGRAM - VIDEOS & RESULT

    1. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) - 95.32 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
    2. Daisuke TAKAHASHI (JPN) - 87.47 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
    3. Javier FERNANDEZ (ESP) - 86.23 Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
    4. Ross MINER (USA) - 72.40 Short Program
    5. Kevin REYNOLDS (CAN) - 70.20 Short Program
    6. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 70.05 Short Program
    7. Sergei VORONOV (RUS) - 70.03 Short Program
    8. Adam RIPPON (USA) - 67.89 Short Program
    9. Andrei ROGOZINE (CAN) - 67.70 Short Program
    WD Daisuke MURAKAMI (JPN) Short Program

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    You are probably right on this one. I agree with all the critics expressed on this thread about Hanyu being overscored. Some mixture of short track, speed skating and arms moving like sleeves of shirt. What a disappointment after last year's magnificient progs. Not a surprised that the praise of Hanyu comes from those who often praise overscored Chan with pretty much the same meaningless skating. Yuzu'z PCS just 0.11 lower Dai is such a lame attempt of cooking that I won't even bother to comment it. Last year Javi's PCS also jumped up drastically after he moved to Orser while his components were not as good as the inflated score claimed. As for Javi and Dai, the Spanish had better jumps but lower level of spins and seqs, and his body was too stiff, not sharp enough for this prog. So, I agree with the placement and the fact that the difference of points between Dai and Javi is small, leaving them both the chance to figure things out in FS. What I don't get is how come that Hanyu elements are that much higher scored of 10 GOE than Javi. Judging from Hanyu's interview it seems like Orser himself considers Yuzu as #1 for Brian's career maker (like Yuna was) and not Javi's rival at all. Why judges should see it differently. All these games are pathetic. I agree with the general placement but the difference between Yuzu and two others no way should as much. What world record? The baby didn't even challenge a quad combo, the thing that a bunch of skaters can land, and the thing that Yag with Plu did in SP more than a decade ago. One of features of Chanflation is a huge gap between Chan and rivals after SP thanks to manipulation with GOE and PCS, just in case if he makes mistakes in FS, such gap will help him to stay on top. That kills the intrigue of the competion in advance. Pretty much the same we observe here. So, yeah, if we have to be fair, then Yuzuflation has the same right to exist as Chanflation . It must one hell of coincidence that it started after Yuzu moved to Canada.
    Sigh. First of all what does a Quad combo have to do with it. You realize theres no bonus for doing the harder combo so he gets the same base value doing a single quad toe and a 3lutz/3toe than if he did the 3lutz sep. In fact Hanyu ended up with a higher bonus because he put the 3lutz/3toe in the bonus section of his program...

    I dont see how Chan inflation occurs. First of all the complaints are when Chan falls 3 times and gets about 10 more points in PCS than anyone else. In this case Hanyu didn't even have the highest PCS in either phase of the competition. Hes a better skater than Fernandez he deserves higher PCS. One can quibble about Dai getting higher but Dai was not perfect in that program.

    As for Hanyus GOE. That program has complex transitions, and the jumps are textbook. His jumps were better landed than Fernandez they are bigger and better than Dais. And he had transitions. Most men when they do a single quad they break the rules by doing no footwork see Kozuka. Hanyu actually does footwork into his. He had that ridiculous entrance into the 3axel and I believe something going into his combination too.

    That program is jam packed with transitions and designed to get a lot of points..

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    First of all what does a Quad combo have to do with it. You realize theres no bonus for doing the harder combo so he gets the same base value doing a single quad toe and a 3lutz/3toe than if he did the 3lutz sep.
    Preciely, my dear! That's why this sport is losing its popularty thanks to people like you who are advocating for lesser rewards for more difficult elements. You said yourself that it's a "harder combo". But what rewards we have in SP according to your beloved CoP: 4T-3T combo+3L= 14.40+6.00=20.40; 4T+3L-3T combo=10.30+10.10=20.40, i.e. the same points for challenging a harder combo 4T-3T and challenging 3L-3T that some junior girls can do . What can be more laughable. Sport has always been about achivements, doing something tougher and new. It's sick to see how you call yourself things "harder" and yet you see nothing wrong that athletes are not properly rewarded for doing harder things. World record is smth. that has never done before a priori. Things that are called "world record" now according to CoP is in fact poorly recycled stuff that some dudes could do years ago. :
    I dont see how Chan inflation occurs.
    Who cares what you see or not. It happened and that's it. Overscored GOE for the jumps that Javi didn't do worse but got lesser GOE, pretyy much the same PCS as Dai (what a joke), so the soup of 10 points difference after SP is cooked, just like in classic Chanflation.

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