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Thread: 2012 NHK Trophy Free Dance

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    YMMV RE: V/M lifts -- I don't care for them personally, but as I said I like the program, so this is not a slam on their whole FD, just the lifts.

    As for scoring for D/W, I disagree. 108 is high, yes, but they have scored higher than that in the FD in past seasons (they scored 109 in Russia last season). But rather in PCS, they have more scoring potential in the TES side. Their BV was actually the same as I/K (28.70). They need to get level 4s or at least get rid of any level 2 elements. Their PB is 112. So there's a little room to improve.
    I'm not arguing 108 is too high for the skate they gave (and how interesting is it that the team most associated with Shpilband seems to be the one least affected by his exit technically?). I'm arguing that it's harder to score higher PCS when you already score high PCS, and that DF bore that out.

  2. #122
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'm not arguing 108 is too high for the skate they gave (and how interesting is it that the team most associated with Shpilband seems to be the one least affected by his exit technically?). I'm arguing that it's harder to score higher PCS when you already score high PCS, and that DF bore that out.
    And I agree with you that I don't see their PCS going much higher, though they could get a couple more 10s I suppose. But I'm just saying their higher score potential is on the TES side.

  3. #123
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    Congratulations to all the medalists!!

    D/W: Their second outing and all of a sudden I am a fan of this free dance! Don't know what changed, but it was very lovely and emotional.
    I/K: Good for them on giving such a good performance despite being ill. Personally I prefer their short dance to their free.
    Shibs: So happy they were able to medal! And this is my favorite free dance of theirs.

    Now to the final! First head to head between D/W and V/M. I am actually more curious about how the two Russian teams will stack up. Could be a good preview of Russian Nationals.

  4. #124
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    FREE DANCE - VIDEOS & RESULT (Updated)

    1. Meryl DAVIS & Charlie WHITE (USA) - 178.48 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
    2. Elena ILINYKH & Nikita KATSALAPOV (RUS) - 156.62 Free Dance
    3. Maia SHIBUTANI & Alex SHIBUTANI (USA) - 154.56 Free Dance
    4. Nicole ORFORD & Thomas WILLIAMS (CAN) - 130.10 Free Dance
    5. Cathy REED & Chris REED (JPN) - 124.46 Free Dance
    6. Penny COOMES & Nicholas BUCKLAND (GBR) - 122.80
    7. Xintong HUANG & Xun ZHENG (CHN) - 119.56
    8. Xiaoyang YU & Chen WANG (CHN) - 108.28

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    I'm really amazed that people object that VM's Carmen ...isn't the story of Carmen ?!?!

    One thing I've always objected to in Ice Dance is the tendency always to try to reproduce the whole story of an Opera or movie or musical in one brief skating program. I've always thought it would be fine ( and nice for a change) to portray a moment from the story, or just the nature of the characters . This is one reason I like V/M's FD so much.

    To me, it obvious that VM's program is a character study of Carmen and Don Jose . It describes the nature of their relationship .. that the destructive force she's unleashed ultimately consumes her as well , doesn't really need spelling out. As driven as she is and as deeply obsessed as he is ,when V/M take their final pose, there's only one or two possible places the story could go from there , and it's Carmen ..we all know which impulse prevails.

    Once again , this will come down how the top two couples skate on a given day. Someday I hope to see them compete against each other when both have programs I love....I don't know how I'd survive it , but I'd like to find out.

    ETA; Good point, cas

    I blush, but ..I'll have to come back again...
    I agree with you -- and comments made by CAS. D/W 's ND beautifully skated, however, the program seems similar to past ones but to different music, always skated with the slightly frantic pace of an exhibition number. While they have excellent connection to the music, I see no connection between them. They have so much talent - I would love to see them push the boundaries with their material. Mrs. P. - D/W did indeed peak @ 2011 Worlds but V/M were injured & skated 1/2 a program the whole season.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Diva View Post
    I agree with you -- and comments made by CAS. D/W 's ND beautifully skated, however, the program seems similar to past ones but to different music, always skated with the slightly frantic pace of an exhibition number. While they have excellent connection to the music, I see no connection between them. They have so much talent - I would love to see them push the boundaries with their material. Mrs. P. - D/W did indeed peak @ 2011 Worlds but V/M were injured & skated 1/2 a program the whole season.
    What kind of connection would you like to see between Davis and White? I keep reading (in certain posters' comments) about this team not having a connection but I'll be darned if I can figure out what that should be. They look at each other as they skate, they're acting out their program's "roles" as much as needed by the music, they have expressions on their faces. This is a sport with a bit of dramatic presentation thrown in, not a movie. I've watched other teams to see if they have more of this "connection" but haven't noticed anything different from D/W (well...with the exception of C/L's very hot Carmen this season--it's a good thing Anna isn't skating with a dagger!)

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by meem View Post
    What kind of connection would you like to see between Davis and White? I keep reading (in certain posters' comments) about this team not having a connection but I'll be darned if I can figure out what that should be. They look at each other as they skate, they're acting out their program's "roles" as much as needed by the music, they have expressions on their faces. This is a sport with a bit of dramatic presentation thrown in, not a movie. I've watched other teams to see if they have more of this "connection" but haven't noticed anything different from D/W (well...with the exception of C/L's very hot Carmen this season--it's a good thing Anna isn't skating with a dagger!)
    I agree...I really enjoyed this outing.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Diva View Post
    D/W 's ND beautifully skated, however, ... always skated with the slightly frantic pace
    Quote Originally Posted by meem View Post
    What kind of connection would you like to see between Davis and White?
    May be it is D/W's speed (frantic pace) that kills the connections. I think it takes time to create a moment.

    I was comparing V/M spin to D/W spin in the FD, both level 4 spin. D/W spin faster (+1.21 GOE NHK). V/M is slower (+0.5 GOE COR) but show much more tenderness and intimacy with M's head below V and looking at her while they spin. To me it feel like V/M has a private moment on ice and sharing with the audience. That's the type of connections I like to see from D/W.

  9. #129
    Custom Title mikiandorocks's Avatar
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    But that's V&M style. To each its own. The last thing I would like to see is Merlie trying to copy anyone else. They don't need it. It seems to me that they have much more of an athletic and powerful approach to their free dances and it just looks spectacular the way it is. Besides I don't believe that every single ice-dance team has to look like they are in love. If someone like Virtue & Moir can have moments in which we feel like witnessing an intimate moment it's fine. It looks great. But if someone tries to express themselves in a different way showing power like Merlie or a theatrical approach like Zhiganshina & Gazsi that's great as well.

  10. #130
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwsf View Post
    May be it is D/W's speed (frantic pace) that kills the connections. I think it takes time to create a moment.

    I was comparing V/M spin to D/W spin in the FD, both level 4 spin. D/W spin faster (+1.21 GOE NHK). V/M is slower (+0.5 GOE COR) but show much more tenderness and intimacy with M's head below V and looking at her while they spin. To me it feel like V/M has a private moment on ice and sharing with the audience. That's the type of connections I like to see from D/W.
    You mean D&W should skate slower so that they lower their skating skills score, and spin slower so that they can achieve the wonder of getting lower GOE?

    How does that make sense for athletes to do?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikiandorocks View Post
    But that's V&M style. To each its own. The last thing I would like to see is Merlie trying to copy anyone else. They don't need it. It seems to me that they have much more of an athletic and powerful approach to their free dances and it just looks spectacular the way it is. Besides I don't believe that every single ice-dance team has to look like they are in love. If someone like Virtue & Moir can have moments in which we feel like witnessing an intimate moment it's fine. It looks great. But if someone tries to express themselves in a different way showing power like Merlie or a theatrical approach like Zhiganshina & Gazsi that's great as well.
    ITA.

    I'm relatively new to this whole Ice Dance thing (didn't really start following it until the 2010 Olympics; though it caught my eye in 2006 when B/A won silver), but I'm having a hard time with this whole connection = being in love concept. And I have a hard time with D/W = no connection.

    Because I do believe D + W have a connection with each other. But I see that connection more of a theatrical and athletic one rather than of an intimate nature. This might sound silly to you, but they kind of remind me of those who do those synchronized diving events. When you watch the top Chinese divers in a platform diving event, like at the Olympics, you are amazed, not just because they are good athletics, but they have a connection with each other that enables them to dives with great precision and coordination. And when they do that, it's sort of like art to see their bodies work together to achieve this athletic feat.

    Likewise, I feel that D + W's long partnership has enabled the connect each other in a way that enables them to express their power and athleticism in a beautiful way. I think that's the best way I can explain it.

    I also think it's great that V/M are able to express intimate moments in their skating. I agree with mikiandorocks that we should be lucky we can see so many different styles in Ice Dance. I think it does increase interest in the sport when many styles can thrive.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-25-2012 at 09:53 PM.

  12. #132
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    1. It's not as if D/W have avoided programs with romantic themes, though. Phantom of the Opera is a romantic melodrama and they clearly included gestures and moments meant to convey that (they failed at that, imo). Their Tango was a similarly chaste affair (though so technically audacious and thrilling it almost didn't matter).

    2. For me, it's that I don't see their bodies work together as much as I'd like. When they do, it can be thrilling (all the lifts in the tango, the DF rotational lift). But because Charlie tends to be of limited expressivity, they really didn't "perform" as well (their Latin SD was a notable exception). Connection doesn't mean being in love. A pair like Savchenko/Szolkowy demonstrate that all the time but I don't see as deeply with D/W. It's definitely not a theatrical connection (athletic I can buy, but not theatrical). Those synchro divers you mention tend to seem more mechanical than anything, so it might just be different perceptions (though D/W definitely have a mechanistic quality to some of their movements)

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    I like this discussion about connection.

    As everyone knows, V/M and D/W are very different teams but to say that D/W have no connection other than an athletic one is not only selling them short but is also missing the more elusive quality of their connection.

    V/M have more of a traditional romantic connection with a lot of eye contact, body control, slow accentuation of their lines, and intimacy. I also feel that it's more traditional because it seems to me to be generated by Scott and received by Tessa and it's rooted in their physicality with one another.

    However, I feel that D/W also have a romantic connection on the ice but it's less traditional and also less rooted in the physical- it's more a meeting of the minds. To me their connection is more cerebral even though they express it through movement- whether it takes a light, infectious, joyous quality or if it's darker and anguished. They have an emotional energy that flows out of them so that their Yankee polka is the lightest and most gay of all the interpretations. Charlie is also a real gentleman in his manner but it can be a delight to see that when he does send that energy out that Meryl reacts to it with a twinkle in her eye in their lighter programs. Their darker programs have more pulsing undertones that can be sexual but more mysterious and held in than V/M. I also feel that Meryl generates quite a bit of the emotional connection between the two of them in these instances while Charlie is the one receiving so the flow of romance feels different. She has a gentle, dreamy, indirect kind of energy that she uses to reach out and touch him with and it seems to absorb into him so they don't always look at each other but the connection is still there.

    I also feel that D/W's emotions when they skate are less controlled than V/M's so to me the abandon in their movement is something that's uniquely their own.
    Last edited by missysays; 11-26-2012 at 01:39 AM.

  14. #134
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    D and W and V and M are both awesome teams. it is such a debate as to who is better. I do think V and M need to focus more on the techinical elements - speed, crispness and the lifts but they do have the stronger programme in the free probably but techn not as strong. The real battle is the bronze after gold and silver. Well maybe not. P and B - the judges like them; I personally think W and P, I and K and B and S should be over them this year and maybe the Shibs as well and mayb eC and L. Someone is going to get lost in the shuffle between C and L, W and P, and the two russians. I don't think the second American team can squeeze by them. A world bronze by P and B in 2013 will probably push them to Sochi but if they fall to say 7th or 8th we might hear a retirement.

  15. #135
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missysays View Post
    I like this discussion about connection.

    As everyone knows, V/M and D/W are very different teams but to say that D/W have no connection other than an athletic one is not only selling them short but is also missing the more elusive quality of their connection.

    V/M have more of a traditional romantic connection with a lot of eye contact, body control, slow accentuation of their lines, and intimacy. I also feel that it's more traditional because it seems to me to be generated by Scott and received by Tessa and it's rooted in their physicality with one another.

    However, I feel that D/W also have a romantic connection on the ice but it's less traditional and also less rooted in the physical- it's more a meeting of the minds. To me their connection is more cerebral even though they express it through movement- whether it takes a light, infectious, joyous quality or if it's darker and anguished. They have an emotional energy that flows out of them so that their Yankee polka is the lightest and most gay of all the interpretations. Charlie is also a real gentleman in his manner but it can be a delight to see that when he does send that energy out that Meryl reacts to it with a twinkle in her eye in their lighter programs. Their darker programs have more pulsing undertones that can be sexual but more mysterious and held in than V/M. I also feel that Meryl generates quite a bit of the emotional connection between the two of them in these instances while Charlie is the one receiving so the flow of romance feels different. She has a gentle, dreamy, indirect kind of energy that she uses to reach out and touch him with and it seems to absorb into him so they don't always look at each other but the connection is still there.

    I also feel that D/W's emotions when they skate are less controlled than V/M's so to me the abandon in their movement is something that's uniquely their own.
    Wow, you said that way better than I did and that's what I was getting at with the diving example. When you have two people jumping off the platform, it's not just a matter of the physical ability to do the dive (though that is important) but rather the ability to feed off each others' energy and being committed to that dive. So, no ImaginaryPogue, I don't see the divers as just being mechanical.

    The meeting of the minds is the perfect way to describe their connection. I feel what the audience gets out of Meryl and Charlie is the opportunity to see two people who enjoy dancing their hearts out ice together -- not because they are connected in a romantic feeling or way, but rather they are feeling off the energy they get knowing they're in in the same place, in body and spirit. And that energy, when the program is done well, actually ends up being projected to the audience.

    That's not to say Tessa and Scott don't get that same feeling of being in the same place in body and spirit -- I know they do, but again they express it quite differently.

    In the end, I don't think one connection is superior to the other, just different -- and as a result you're going to have some fans drawn to one or the other. That's just how it goes.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-26-2012 at 02:00 AM.

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