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Thread: 2012 NHK Trophy Free Dance

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    A performance that generates a huge standing ovation and a bunch of 10s from the judges is a yawn? After seeing this in Skate America I knew the program had potential to be great and the changes they made along with the additional characterization especially by Charlie really made this performance special. Alex Wong certainly helped with Charlie's greater expression here at the NHK. No one does better spins then Meryl & Charlie. Incredible! I think it more of a masterpiece than V&M's Carmen that really isn't the story of Carmen at all, but some sexual presentation with ugly lifts.
    I do like V&M's Carmen, but I do agree with you about the lifts. I do not get how a team who has beautiful line and positions as they do end up with such terrible lifts.

  2. #107
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Meryl and Charlie were gorgeous. They do need to get higher levels on those step sequences though and fast...before the GPF. Last year they got level 4s on EVERYTHING and thats what they need. The last minute of that program is just beautiful though. all those lifts that go so well with the music and the story. Charlie seemed to show a little more passion and emotion at SA...I would like to see him maintain that level of performance.


    Have to say, side by side, I love Notre Dame more than Carmen right now, but might change my mind by worlds.

  3. #108
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    First thing I want to say about this FD: 96 for I/K has been just disgusting!! Considering the scores that B/S and C/L received it was aburde: almost 51 for the PCS! It's maybe my problem, but there's nothing I like in their FD after the first 30 second... I just can't get why they receive so high scores... They are Morozov skaters?
    Then that I'm happy for the Shibs, they deserved the silver medal! I like this program but maybe I expected too much from them, so I can't fully appreciate it...
    And I liked D/W a lot more than at SA, but my favourite FD of the season remains V/M's Carmen!

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    First thing I want to say about this FD: 96 for I/K has been just disgusting!! Considering the scores that B/S and C/L received it was aburde: almost 51 for the PCS! It's maybe my problem, but there's nothing I like in their FD after the first 30 second... I just can't get why they receive so high scores... They are Morozov skaters?
    Then that I'm happy for the Shibs, they deserved the silver medal! I like this program but maybe I expected too much from them, so I can't fully appreciate it...
    And I liked D/W a lot more than at SA, but my favourite FD of the season remains V/M's Carmen!
    To be fair RE: The Shibs, this was their second outing with it; I expect much improvement by later in the season. In fact, as usual, they manage to make quite a bit of improvement in the two weeks since COR.

    From Ice Network:

    Ilinykh and Katsalapov's routine to music from The Ghost featured Level 4 twizzles and lifts and a Level 4 spin, while the footwork earned a Level 2 and 3.

    The reigning European bronze medalists achieved a new season's best as well with 95.66 points and moved up one spot to second, finishing with 156.62 points.

    "Today was a tough day. Lena suffered from a kind of (food) poisoning. I found out about it just shortly before we skated," Katsalapov revealed. "It was a shock for the whole team, and everybody tried to help her, and me, too."
    So sorry for Elena. Glad she managed to do the dance and well. FWIW, I do think Elena and Nikita do perform the heck out of that FD, so I think that does help them get a boost in the PCS.

  5. #110
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    From Ice Network:

    So sorry for Elena. Glad she managed to do the dance and well. FWIW, I do think Elena and Nikita do perform the heck out of that FD, so I think that does help them get a boost in the PCS.
    That's why she was crying...

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I GPF is going to be quite interesting.
    If history is any indication, D/W always peaked and gold at GPF, but V/W (when they have a full season) beat them at the big ones World and Olympic. I think D/W get the technical part down much quicker than V/W who may be paying more attention to connection and chemistry first and then improve on the technical side for the big events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I do like V&M's Carmen, but I do agree with you about the lifts. I do not get how a team who has beautiful line and positions as they do end up with such terrible lifts.
    V/M lifts are not pretty but appropriate for the program which is aiming for raw and naked emotions. I think smooth and Waltz like type of lifts will not fit.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwsf View Post

    V/M lifts are not pretty but appropriate for the program which is aiming for raw and naked emotions. I think smooth and Waltz like type of lifts will not fit.
    When I say pretty, I don't mean ballerina/waltz positions. I still think they could better take advantage of their great line and posture in their lifts and work them to reflect the power/intensity of the program. Intense/raw does not justify ugly lift positions.

    D/W did peak at Worlds in 2011 when they won.

    A pattern is a pattern until it breaks. I think in fact D/W are in a great position -- they still have some work to do on the tech, but I think they have a key opportunity to work on the PCS side more as well. We'll see!

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I do like V&M's Carmen, but I do agree with you about the lifts. I do not get how a team who has beautiful line and positions as they do end up with such terrible lifts.
    It may be because Moir either isn't strong or tall enough to smoothly lift Virtue up and around his shoulders, all the while staying vertical and fast on the ice. IMO it always looks like a struggle for both of them. I'm beginning to wonder if ice dance is becoming a bit too gymnastic. Wouldn't want it to revert to what it looked like back in the 80's but I think the lifts are soon going to require that all male partners have the build of pairs male skaters (maybe even more powerful).

  9. #114
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I found the British Eurosport guys endearing-whichever of V&M and D&W are competing in a given GP, they think they will probably win Worlds. At COR, V&M were unbeatable...and now Meryl & Charlie. Clearly, both teams gave wonderful performances in their last 2 FD's

    And both programs still have a little room to grow!!

    I liked the addition of the bells to D&W's Notre Dame-and the lifts were so much smoother than at SA. And the performance value was wonderful-clearly Alex Wong earned his money!

    They just need to work over that circular step (both for tech & performance value)--

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwsf View Post
    If history is any indication, D/W always peaked and gold at GPF, but V/W (when they have a full season) beat them at the big ones World and Olympic. I think D/W get the technical part down much quicker than V/W who may be paying more attention to connection and chemistry first and then improve on the technical side for the big events.
    I disagree. Both D/W and V/M have a history of peaking at Worlds. Though you could argue that D/W performed better at the GPF last year than at Worlds (though I wouldn't), I can't think of another year when their performances at Worlds haven't been substantially better than in the fall. And last year, V/M conceded that their performance at Worlds was not their best, so in fact if anything, D/W felt that they skated closer to their peak ability.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    A performance that generates a huge standing ovation and a bunch of 10s from the judges is a yawn? After seeing this in Skate America I knew the program had potential to be great and the changes they made along with the additional characterization especially by Charlie really made this performance special. Alex Wong certainly helped with Charlie's greater expression here at the NHK. No one does better spins then Meryl & Charlie. Incredible! I think it more of a masterpiece than V&M's Carmen that really isn't the story of Carmen at all, but some sexual presentation with ugly lifts.
    Notre Dame is Phantom of the Opera is Samson and Delilah is Prince Igor. D&W do the same thing A&P did during their career and whenever either team ventured outside their comfort zone it either fell flat in some way or was abandoned (ie.. their federation makes them drop it). I'm always amused how some teams are constantly berated for skating the same thing yet this team seems to escape it. Baffling really but I can only assume, as with A&P, it's because this style of program is easy for the audience to understand so it's excused. Of course D&W and A&P were great teams but how long can you skate the same thing and keep calling it a masterpiece? I´ll leave the Carmen opinion alone except to say it's not surprising that something who considers ND a masterpiece can't find the story of Carmen in that FD.

  12. #117
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I'm really amazed that people object that VM's Carmen ...isn't the story of Carmen ?!?!

    One thing I've always objected to in Ice Dance is the tendency always to try to reproduce the whole story of an Opera or movie or musical in one brief skating program. I've always thought it would be fine ( and nice for a change) to portray a moment from the story, or just the nature of the characters . This is one reason I like V/M's FD so much.

    To me, it obvious that VM's program is a character study of Carmen and Don Jose . It describes the nature of their relationship .. that the destructive force she's unleashed ultimately consumes her as well , doesn't really need spelling out. As driven as she is and as deeply obsessed as he is ,when V/M take their final pose, there's only one or two possible places the story could go from there , and it's Carmen ..we all know which impulse prevails.

    Once again , this will come down how the top two couples skate on a given day. Someday I hope to see them compete against each other when both have programs I love....I don't know how I'd survive it , but I'd like to find out.

    ETA; Good point, cas

    I blush, but ..I'll have to come back again...
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-24-2012 at 06:29 PM.

  13. #118
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    re: D/W

    What's interesting to me is we what we saw last season w/ their PCS. They debuted huge, but law of averages meant that they weren't able to maintain the scores they got, which dropped at the GPF thn 4CC and finally Worlds (PCS improved at WTT, but by then it was too late). Now, at least they have a program that feels like it can grow (DF was so perfect out of the box that you can make the argument that no changes/no growth really worked against them) - but the judges are scoring it like it can't grow. Which means that even if they do grow with the dance, it's harder to score higher.

    re: V/M

    There's more psychological richness and power in their final pose than most skaters achieve in full programs, or even careers (coughI/Kcough). I love Carmen from first beat to last breath. It's operates on this emotionally heightened planet. It doesn't go for mere story - we all know the story, but for the soul and power of it. It depicts how the story makes you feel - the overt sexualization, the keening madness, the destructive rage. It's really one of the most astonishing programs I've ever seen. I actually like the lifts, Mrs. P - all of them really combine the feeling/art of Carmen (the battle, the tension-release game) with astonishing precision (the candlestick lift and the final rotational lift both require perfect timing to actually work). It boggles the mind.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-24-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    re: D/W

    What's interesting to me is we what we saw last season w/ their PCS. They debuted huge, but law of averages meant that they weren't able to maintain the scores they got, which dropped at the GPF thn 4CC and finally Worlds (PCS improved at WTT, but by then it was too late). Now, at least they have a program that feels like it can grow (DF was so perfect out of the box that you can make the argument that no changes/no growth really worked against them) - but the judges are scoring it like it can't grow. Which means that even if they do grow with the dance, it's harder to score higher.

    re: V/M

    There's more psychological richness and power in their final pose than most skaters achieve in full programs, or even careers (coughI/Kcough). I love Carmen from first beat to last breath. It's operates on this emotionally heightened planet. It doesn't go for mere story - we all know the story, but for the soul and power of it. It depicts how the story makes you feel - the overt sexualization, the keening madness, the destructive rage. It's really one of the most astonishing programs I've ever seen. I actually like the lifts, Mrs. P - all of them really combine the feeling/art of Carmen (the battle, the tension-release game) with astonishing precision (the candlestick lift and the final rotational lift both require perfect timing to actually work). It boggles the mind.
    YMMV RE: V/M lifts -- I don't care for them personally, but as I said I like the program, so this is not a slam on their whole FD, just the lifts.

    As for scoring for D/W, I disagree. 108 is high, yes, but they have scored higher than that in the FD in past seasons (they scored 109 in Russia last season). But rather in PCS, they have more scoring potential in the TES side. Their BV was actually the same as I/K (28.70). They need to get level 4s or at least get rid of any level 2 elements. Their PB is 112. So there's a little room to improve.

  15. #120
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    When D&W did Tango, which is nothing like Phantom, they won Worlds...just saying. Which isn't too flat

    And Eleanor Rigby is more of an inward looking piece about depression (especially as it was presented at Skate America).

    And Die Fledermaus is sort an extended Grand Ball OD (waltz/polka), light, elegant and fluffy. None of those 3 FD's had a significant story line, for example. Are you saying that DF was unsuccessful because it didn't win worlds? But only one team at a time can win Worlds, of course. Second place and lots of standing ovations and other wins is not chopped chicken liver.

    And their light & happy ODs/SDs are radically different from their FD's. One should not pretend the OD's / SD's do not exist. Bollywood was & Giselle is quite lovely and nothing like their FD's.

    Notre Dame has similarities to Phantom (big, dramatic, passionate stories both) but it is not the young love tale of Prince Igor, nor is it the seduction & destruction tale of Samson and Delilah.

    It is certainly possible for a team to tackle a wider variety of subjects than D&W, but they are not remarkably narrow, nor remarkably broad IMO.

    I'm unsure what other teams you feel are being criticized? If you mean V&M, surely the existence of their Pink Floyd and their current Carmen FD would show they too, have a range of subjects, other than the nice love stories they often portray.

    Now, older teams have had more opportunities of course, because they have had more seasons to show their stuff.

    Both teams have had 6 FD's and 6 SD's in their senior career. That isn't a long time to try to encompass the entire range of musical dance stories, is it? I think each has done well, in the own ways.




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