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Thread: 2012 NHK Trophy Mens Free Skate

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    The reason a lot of people aren't complaining about Hanyu's win is because Hanyu didn't win because he was given huge PCS over everyone else. Patrick would get PCS in the upper 80s for three fall programs and that's where people would hem and haw. In this program Dai won the PCS mark and Hanyu took the free based on TES. And its understandable Hanyu took it based on TES if you look at the program.

    One of the biggest things of anger is when PCS are used to hold up skaters.
    If I had a short memory, maybe you would have succeded with the above. As I recall, if Patrick had two or three falls in his programs, he has never won that portion of the competition. One of the most often used example to "beat him up" was his Skate Canada Int. win a few years ago where he fell three times in the FS, yet he was actually ranked 4th in the FS but won overall due to the strength of his SP where the other skaters made mistakes. In the past, you have specfically complained about Chan's scores, not the just the PCS but the TES as well where you called for a redesign of the jumping scores to penalize the falls more. Why are you now suddenly much more understanding about Hanyu's falls and the high TES that followed? I don't understand your change of heart, it's very perplexing to say the least. Furthermore, Hanyu won not just overall but the FS with two falls over the clean performance of Ross Miner in both TES and PCS. Don't you find that outrageous? Miner had a Quad and two Triple Axels, and every other jump and unlike Hanyu who had two falls, Miner was clean. You'd think Miner would at least won on the TES, right but no, he wasn't.

    As for Hanyu's FS performance itself, for him to score 78 in PCS in such favorable environment - NHK, hometown, leader after the SP, is quite telling. The performance was subpar, he was not expressing the music as well as he could and he looked tired. And why he insists on wearing flashy gloves in Johnny Weir-esque way is perplexing as he has done that way too many times - it's fun once, maybe twice, but every year? He needs to grow up and skate like one. The fact his PCS dropped so much compared to his SP should be a clear warning sign. When Takahashi or Chan underformed in their FS vs. the SP, their relative PCS don't drop that much vis-a-vis their SP. Had that skate being outside of Japan, Hanyu would have been lucky to get that much in PCS.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    How about the fact that this group you're referring to simply just don't like the skater they were complaining about? I feel that's some people.
    In other words, selective complaining because their favorite didn't win as opposed to genuine outrage, well if so, that's sad.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In other words, selective complaining because their favorite didn't win as opposed to genuine outrage, well if so, that's sad.
    Well again, keyword is some. I would argue few. Most genuinely just question the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    If I had a short memory, maybe you would have succeded with the above. As I recall, if Patrick had two or three falls in his programs, he has never won that portion of the competition. One of the most often used example to "beat him up" was his Skate Canada Int. win a few years ago where he fell three times in the FS, yet he was actually ranked 4th in the FS but won overall due to the strength of his SP where the other skaters made mistakes. In the past, you have specfically complained about Chan's scores, not the just the PCS but the TES as well where you called for a redesign of the jumping scores to penalize the falls more. Why are you now suddenly much more understanding about Hanyu's falls and the high TES that followed? I don't understand your change of heart, it's very perplexing to say the least. Furthermore, Hanyu won not just overall but the FS with two falls over the clean performance of Ross Miner in both TES and PCS. Don't you find that outrageous? Miner had a Quad and two Triple Axels, and every other jump and unlike Hanyu who had two falls, Miner was clean. You'd think Miner would at least won on the TES, right but no, he wasn't.

    As for Hanyu's FS performance itself, for him to score 78 in PCS in such favorable environment - NHK, hometown, leader after the SP, is quite telling. The performance was subpar, he was not expressing the music as well as he could and he looked tired. And why he insists on wearing flashy gloves in Johnny Weir-esque way is perplexing as he has done that way too many times - it's fun once, maybe twice, but every year? He needs to grow up and skate like one. The fact his PCS dropped so much compared to his SP should be a clear warning sign. When Takahashi or Chan underformed in their FS vs. the SP, their relative PCS don't drop that much vis-a-vis their SP. Had that skate being outside of Japan, Hanyu would have been lucky to get that much in PCS.
    Patrick actually was 4th in the SP and first in the FS. I actually did not agree with the results of that particular competition because you had him beating both Adam Rippon and Nobunari Oda who did a lot more technically but Patrick still won despite, what I feel were some very disruptive falls in both programs, particularly in his SP. That was one competition where I felt he was overscored on PCS for how he actually performed on the ice.

    That said, I don't think all his wins were questionable, didn't have a problem with his COR win this season.

    As for Hanyu -- the kid's 17! Of course he's not going to skate with as much artistry or maturity as skaters who are several years older than him. And that was reflected in his PCS relative to Takahashi. That said, his PCS could stand to be a bit lower the judges marked him down considerably at SA, scoring him at 72.11, and I think he did a bit better here in the performance, so I'd say 74-75 is reasonable in the low 7s.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    As for Hanyu -- the kid's 17! Of course he's not going to skate with as much artistry or maturity as skaters who are several years older than him. And that was reflected in his PCS relative to Takahashi. That said, his PCS could stand to be a bit lower the judges marked him down considerably at SA, scoring him at 72.11, and I think he did a bit better here in the performance, so I'd say 74-75 is reasonable in the low 7s.
    Hanyu actually scored lower in PCS at NHK than at SA. At SA he scored 79.56. He got 78.78 at NHK. The 72.11 was his TES.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Hanyu actually scored lower in PCS at NHK than at SA. At SA he scored 79.56. He got 78.78 at NHK. The 72.11 was his TES.
    Opps, you're right! Thanks for the correction. My point stands that his PCS should be lower -- but just a few points.

  6. #216
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    Let's try not to drudge up old arguments just for the sake of arguing.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    The reason a lot of people aren't complaining about Hanyu's win is because Hanyu didn't win because he was given huge PCS over everyone else. Patrick would get PCS in the upper 80s for three fall programs and that's where people would hem and haw. In this program Dai won the PCS mark and Hanyu took the free based on TES. And its understandable Hanyu took it based on TES if you look at the program.

    One of the biggest things of anger is when PCS are used to hold up skaters.
    How funny you've said that! How about this:

    Program Components Factor

    Skating Skills 2.00 8.75 9.00 8.25 8.75 8.75 8.75 9.25 8.80
    Transitions/Linking Footwork/Movements 2.00 8.50 8.25 7.75 8.50 9.00 8.25 9.00 8.50
    Performance/Execution 2.00 8.50 8.50 7.00 8.50 8.25 8.50 9.00 8.45
    Choreography/Composition 2.00 9.00 9.00 8.00 8.75 8.75 8.75 9.25 8.85
    Interpretation of the music 2.00 8.75 8.75 8.25 9.00 9.00 8.75 9.25 8.85

    Judges Total Program Components Score (factorized) 86.90

    Total eleven 9s including three 9.25 in PCS. And that was for a three-fall LP. Fits exactly like what you've described, three falls, PCS in the upper 80s (That was just the average. There were 11 9s and above 9s.). No outrageous cry on that. The same people who have cried outloud on Chan's falls were totally silent on this one. What do you say about that?!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-27-2012 at 11:32 PM.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Let's try not to drudge up old arguments just for the sake of arguing.
    These arguments and the thoughts and feelings behind them rather dictate how I engage with this board, fwiw.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I just got to see everyone on TV. Takahashi's long program was the one that moved me the most. (Act surprised.) This isn't to take away from anything Hanyu did; they showed his short and long programs, and obviously the guy's on his way to be a skating giant. But he still skates like a boy (not like a junior skater, I hasten to add, but like someone not yet matured into his power). Daisuke skates like a man, a mature artist and a commanding technician. I can't parse the skating skills and whatnot--that's not how I look at skating. But when I compare things like the footwork and spins of Daisuke to the other skaters in this competition, what I see is Dai's fluidity. His footwork and spins seem to unroll like ribbon, like dance, from somewhere inside the music. All the other skaters--Miner, Fernandez, even Hanyu to a degree--seem to be flinging themselves around in a dutiful sort of way. At times they're almost lumbering around, as if their feet have weights in them. After a few measures, I look away and continue with my task of organizing my sewing materials. (Exception: what an Ina Bauer Hanyu has!) With Daisuke, I'm riveted to the screen. There are a few movements in his spins that I can't even imagine how he made, because they seem to violate the laws of physics. How can he insert that little sideways kick without falling over? At those moments, I think that the force that keeps him upright is the music itself. This guy has something no one else has, and I'll watch him avidly no matter what ranking he attains with his performance. It's pure sorcery. Congratulations to all three medalists! But a special cheer for Daisuke.
    Wow, beautiful post about Daisuke. I totally agree with all that you said, you put into words everything I was thinking.

  10. #220
    Custom Title Butterscotch17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pitterpatter View Post
    I see your point and I love Dai too, but I don't think he was better than Yuzuru in the free - Dai UR'd and two footed his second quad (which made it worth less than Yuzuru's 3F) and fell on his second 3A, which needed to be in combination. Yuzuru OTOH got credit for two quads, had two nice 3As in the second half, and generally hit his jumps except for the lutz at the end. I think the PCS gap was about right as well - Dai's FS this year doesn't really bring out his best, and the first part of the program is a bit empty. That said, he's definitely way more developed artistically, and his performance built up to the end, which is accounted for in the 4+ pt PCS difference. If you drop Yuzuru's PCS by even 2 pts, that puts him in the same PCS range as Miner/Fernandez: his free isn't as strong as his short (his short would be hard to match) and he does lose steam toward the end, but its chock full of transitions and imo his SS are superior to theirs.

    Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument either, just wanted to put my two cents in . I'm actually hoping Dai kills it in the GPF (he can win if he does) and that his programs will grow on me. No doubt the men will be bringing it in the Final, its gonna be a super competition.
    Thanks for this post, you made some good points, and you are probably right. After looking at the protocols, I see that the numbers do add up, and I can understand now how Yuzuru was in first. I still preferred Dai's free skate more (though I'm in love with Yuzu's SP), but the judges scored Yuzu better. In the end, Yuzuru's mistakes were less costly than Dai's were. And I agree about the GPF. I think the men's GPF will be the most exciting discipline.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterscotch17 View Post
    And I agree about the GPF. I think the men's GPF will be the most exciting discipline.
    Yes definitely, I can't wait! But why does the GPF have to happen during final exams

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    To set the record straight, Takahashi said it himself that he wanted to use Morozov's Russian influence because 2014 Olympics is in Sochi, Russia. Someone just wanted to make it look like I have invented it.
    Then provide the source where he said that.

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    "I felt having a Russian coach on our team could be a big help preparing for Sochi."
    This was Takahashi's original quote from icenetwork article. Is there any other way to interpret it?

    And read over this thread to refresh your memory: Daisuke Takahashi back to Nikolai Morozov

    This was your own post in that thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk
    I would go further. Dai is Russia's Plan B. In case if Plush injuries or can't get an OGM due to whatever reason, the Kremlin would rather deliver it to Morozov's favourite pupil than to a Chanadian. It was all planned.
    Note: I did not consider you were serious in your quote but I knew your position.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-29-2012 at 02:14 PM.

  14. #224
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    "I felt having a Russian coach on our team could be a big help preparing for Sochi."
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    This was Takahashi's original quote from icenetwork article. Is there any other way to interpret it?
    Which article, no link? Anyway, even if Dai was speaking English and said exactly the words that wrote here, then yes, dear- for the majority of people "help" means aid, assistance and/or providing advice. Of course there are those who see only one possible interpretation of "help"- as influence of any kind to deprive people of independent judgement. In any case you said yourself that it's just your interpretation of his words therefore Dai has nothing to do with that.
    And read over this thread to refresh your memory: Daisuke Takahashi back to Nikolai Morozov]
    This was your own post in that thread:

    Originally Posted by let`s talk
    "I would go further. Dai is Russia's Plan B. In case if Plush injuries or can't get an OGM due to whatever reason, the Kremlin would rather deliver it to Morozov's favourite pupil than to a Chanadian. It was all planned "

    Note: I did not consider you were serious in your quote but I knew your position.
    Don't worry sweetheart, my memory is always fresh and my position is well-known. The point is I am not a Daisuke's spokesperson, therefore your reference to my words as a prove of what Dai said has no merit. I am glad that you could get my sarcasm on that thread and welcome back from I-ignore-LT land!

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    You are such an impossible person! Soooo aggressive! You've forced me to speak up and prove it, otherwise you say I was lying. Now I've proved it. You can find the link yourself. I'm not allowed on this site to give out the link. So it's down. Back to ignore you!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-30-2012 at 09:01 AM.

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