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Thread: 2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What Blades of Passion said.

    But I forgot Mirai. Under 6.0 she would have 2nd and 3rd = 3.5 and finish second overall, with Mao third.

    In that case the crowd would not be sitting on its hands, the commentators shaking their heads, fans on skating boards tearing their hair, and Cinquanta sycophants scrambling to make excuses.
    You are stating these as though they are forgone conclusions but the 6.0 system has had very wild range of ordinals quite often. I am not convinced a Mirai who has never won any major international competition and last minute replacement at the competition will score that well against a two time World Champion and OSM. The UR in 3 Loops would have effectively reduced the count of her Triples to 4, which is merely 1 more than Mao. I honestly don't think that's going to be enough to overcome Mao's 2nd set of marks, considering her reputation. So you shouldn't assume that Mirai would necessarily finish ahead of Mao in the LP. More likely than not, she won't.

  2. #257
    Keeper of the Kweens OGM. MK's Winter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post

    I too grew up in the 6.0 era, as most of us here are. That said, Akiko and Mirai's 7 and 6 Triples need to noted with * besides them. Both of Akiko's Triple Lutzes were noted as Flutz, though the severity of the violation is to be determined by each individual judges. Plus, she was also noted to have UR her Triple Loop. That means of the 7 Triple jumps she attempted, only 4 of them were clean. By giving her a 5.7 for Technical Merit in the fictitious example above, I was actually being overly generous in an attempt to appease a fan base whom I know often overlook these details. In reality, under strict interpretation of the 6.0 rules, the Triple Loop could be viewed as a Double due to the UR and the Flutzes, greatly diminished value of those jumps. If one wants to be strict, she could get as low as 5.3-5.4 for Technical Merit. But then, if I do that, there will be a big outcry that I am biased against her so no, I'd go with a 5.7 to avoid any sort of negative allegation - I have other cards in pocket with the ordinal system. Remember, I would not be anonymous under the 6.0 system.

    As for Mirai, of her 6 Triples, both Triple Loops were UR, therefore, would be marked as Doubles, making her a program a 4 Triple program. She has very good spins, but slightly easier jumps, so I'd probably mark her around 5.3-5.5 range for Technical Merit. So since she only has 1 more Triple than Mao, Mao's Technical Merit in the 5.0-5.1 range would be fair in comparison. But this leaves rooms for the 2nd mark. It happens so many times in the 6.0 era that skater won on the strength of their 2nd marks despite having lower 1st marks.

    All things considered, the results produced by both systems would have been very similar here, with or without any secret agenda.
    * Please note I was watching all three performances on my IPhone*

    I thought Akiko's first lutz looked pretty good edge wise. I couldn't tell on the second. I thought Mirai's second loop was the only one under rotated.

    To me Mao having issues with her jumps did affect her program artistically. It's kinda like junior jumps with a senior presentation, which I think should have been awarded bronze ( due to her lead in the short). But I do see where you are coming from as well, I appreciate the break down, now I'd only they could do that on Tv......

  3. #258
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Mirai's Triple Loops wouldn't have been marked as doubles under 6.0 scoring. They were barely UR and nobody would have noticed/cared very much. She would maybe get .1 lower on the tech score for lack of flow out.
    BTW, as for CoP, these jumps were scored incorrectly. The first 3Loop shouldn't have been < at all, only the 2Toe afterward, and there shouldn't have been -GOE. The second 3Loop deserved the <, but it shouldn't have gotten -GOE like it did. That jump was preceded by a VERY difficult transition and had fine amplitude and no real problems on the landing.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Mirai's Triple Loops wouldn't have been marked as doubles under 6.0 scoring. They were barely UR and nobody would have noticed/cared very much. She would maybe get .1 lower on the tech score for lack of flow out.
    Mirai's loop wasn't barely UR, people would have noticed it, even before the jump was shown on slow mo the commentator said that her loop was underotatet, so it WAS noticeable and it would have counted as a doubles under 6.0 scoring!

  5. #260
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    Mirai's loop wasn't barely UR, people would have noticed it, even before the jump was shown on slow mo the commentator said that her loop was underotatet, so it WAS noticeable and it would have counted as a doubles under 6.0 scoring!
    You are wrong. Judges wouldn't have been looking at slow-mo of the jump in the first place. She did the jump and landed it cleanly and it would have been scored as a fine 3Loop.

  6. #261
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    The competitions where Akiko doesn't give it away in the short she tends to win/be at the top of - NHK last season, WTT this year. I really really hope she takes her ability to comeback to heart but puts herself in a position where she doesn't have to comeback. It's interesting - she and Wagner are the top two ladies this season and both have had issues with the short program. Wagner seems to have overcome hers. Fingers crossed for Akiko.

  7. #262
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    I always considered Nagasu a bit of a head case. But she really impressed me with her fs, even with 3 UR. The US ladies have quite a crop of contenders this year

  8. #263
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You are stating these as though they are forgone conclusions but the 6.0 system has had very wild range of ordinals quite often. I am not convinced a Mirai who has never won any major international competition and last minute replacement at the competition will score that well against a two time World Champion and OSM. The UR in 3 Loops would have effectively reduced the count of her Triples to 4, which is merely 1 more than Mao. I honestly don't think that's going to be enough to overcome Mao's 2nd set of marks, considering her reputation. So you shouldn't assume that Mirai would necessarily finish ahead of Mao in the LP. More likely than not, she won't.
    Well, this is what I think. Yes there were competitions scored under 6.0 where the "wrong" skater won, just like now.

    The difference is, back in the day if I disagreed with the judges I could yell at my TV screen, "Boo, what's wrong with you judges? Are you blind?"

    Now, all I can do is stare blankly at the protocols. To me, the current judging system takes the soul out of figure skating and replaces it with rows of numbers.

  9. #264
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    Am I the only here who loved Agnes' performance today?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cGppUparT4

    The jumps, spins, skills. Everything with quality. I really like. This girl has talent and potential!

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    now you are only looking at the jumps, you have to include all the other elements in your calculation, and when that is done you will see that akiko still won the fs by a large margin, but it was Mao's almost ten points lead from the sp that closed the gap!
    These gp events have shown that Mao is really close to losing all of her jumps and I hope the gpf or 4cc or worlds shows a Mao that can jump and not have people not caring when she wins with 2 types of triples or 3 triples. It is a horrendous display of jumps she is putting on. She is now one of the worst jumpers in all of figure skating. She is so terrine on jumps she is really embarrassing herself. This skater can barely do triples! Worst thing about is that she no longer cares about jumps and is doing nothing to improve. Judges are giving her huge positive for for doubles and don't even care about single salchows and try to give her more goe on spins and steps to mAke up for it. This is a skater I was a fan of but now she isn't doing any jump well and is winning atrociously with awful skates.

  11. #266
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    These gp events have shown that Mao is really close to losing all of her jumps and I hope the gpf or 4cc or worlds shows a Mao that can jump and not have people not caring when she wins with 2 types of triples or 3 triples. It is a horrendous display of jumps she is putting on. She is now one of the worst jumpers in all of figure skating. She is so terrine on jumps she is really embarrassing herself. This skater can barely do triples! Worst thing about is that she no longer cares about jumps and is doing nothing to improve. Judges are giving her huge positive for for doubles and don't even care about single salchows and try to give her more goe on spins and steps to mAke up for it. This is a skater I was a fan of but now she isn't doing any jump well and is winning atrociously with awful skates.
    I doubt it is that Mao doesn't care its just the jumps aren't what they use to be. Asada was always a bit overrated in the jump department due to triple axel which was never the most consistent thing ever. Add in the new rules with harsher penalties and that made it worse... In reality Kim was always overall the better jumper she just didn't have an eye catching trick like the 3axel.

    I'm sure Mao is doing her best and practicing it. Many said she didn't look happy with that "win" It is what it is.

  12. #267
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  13. #268
    Custom Title Rachmaninoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    No, it's not all subjective, but you could legitimately disagree. She is very capable of dazzling footwork but she doesn't do enough in-between or preceding her jumps. Merely doing them during the required step sequence is insufficient. So no, it's not a weak area, rather, it's only an issue because she failed to utilize them.
    No, it's not "all" subjective, but there's no doubt some of it is. Any skater in history who's been described as "dazzling" or "breathtaking" has left some other people shrugging and saying, "Meh. What's the big deal?" Some people are captivated, some don't feel the same connection. So while skaters vary a lot in their ability to interpret music, viewers also vary in how they respond to it. I think if we want to keep valuing the artistic part of the sport, that's unavoidable to some extent.

    But when most viewers agree that one skater's performance and interpretation was clearly superior, and that skater isn't rewarded for it, there's something wrong. I completely disagree that Akiko was lacking in her interpretation. I thought she used the music beautifully throughout, hit a lot of nuances in it, and made me like a piece of music I would have felt no connection to otherwise. That should be worth more than it is under the current scoring system, IMO. I don't believe there was any grand conspiracy to put Mao first (just like I don't believe there was any conspiracy to put Katelyn Osmond first at Skate Canada). The scoring may well be fair under the current system. But in that case, I don't like the way the second mark is judged under the current system. Part of figure skating's appeal is in beautifully interpreted performances, those that have an indescribable quality that just makes you go, wow. If that isn't rewarded much in the second mark, I think something is lost.

  14. #269
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    I think Rachmaninoff has hit the nail on the head for many people.

    If the scoring was correct, the rules need to be changed

    If the scoring was incorrect, the judges need to be changed.

  15. #270
    ♥ My Mirai's Golden Pond ♥ Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HR4 View Post
    WHAT??????????????? poor Suzuki and Mirai. CANT believe it.
    ^^^
    THIS!

    Well-anyway. Congrats to all the medallists-especially Mirai!!

    Thanks again everyone for pbp!! Much appreciated! :D

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