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Thread: 2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate

  1. #286
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    When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 11-25-2012 at 03:51 AM.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.
    And that's what the PE/EX mark should be about but, somehow, Mao's mark was higher than Suzuki's! I would have given Akiko something between 8 and 8.5 and Mao 7.5, surely not more than 7.75! Asada's performance looked really something disastrous (even if she did landed three clean triples), just the look on her face was worryied and sad...

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Asada's performance looked really something disastrous
    The key word is "look". It looked disastrous but in fact not. When you analyzed it in parts, it was actually not that bad. But as a whole, yeah, it was disastrous. A strange concept, isn't it?

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    The key word is "look". It looked disastrous but in fact not. When you analyzed it in parts, it was actually not that bad. But as a whole, yeah, it was disastrous. A strange concept, isn't it?
    That is what I really dislike about CoP sometimes. Some people try to justify scores by saying something like, "oh, skater X fell three times, but all those falls only added up to about 5 seconds and the other 2 minutes and 45 seconds were great and that's why it's OK that the PE marks were high for a 3-fall performance!"

    I guess it makes sense on some logical level, but intuitively it feels so wrong.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    The key word is "look". It looked disastrous but in fact not. When you analyzed it in parts, it was actually not that bad. But as a whole, yeah, it was disastrous. A strange concept, isn't it?

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    If this is supposed to be a dig at Mao, I do think it's totally uncalled for. Does it really look like she's happy because she did so well?
    No I'm not picking on Mao. I'm criticizing all the women out there.

    Without consistent 3F & 3Lz that actually utilize the correct technique (no cheated takeoff), you have a bunch of ladies who consistently deliver 3Lo, 3S & 3T in their programs since no current lady can do 3A (Mao no longer bothers w/ 3A either).

    What is the point of calling someone "senior competitor" when she delivers junior programs?

    It's frustrating to look at watered down programs. I do not watch novice and junior ladies for a reason -- their programs do not move me or excite me, and if senior ladies keep doing junior programs, I no longer have any reasons to watch them either.

  7. #292
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    I thought I'd be happy to see Mao win an international competition and ecstatic if she won two. But all I feel is distressed. I'm willing to bet that she doesn't feel really thrilled either.

    Leaving out all the judging strangeness, what on earth is going on with her skating? You don't just lose all your triple jumps like that. She's not exceedingly old for a skater (ironically, Akiko is quite a bit older), she hasn't put on weight or gone into some kind of delayed puberty. She is training with perhaps the best coach in Japan. What is going on?

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    This reminds me of when Chan won a GP with three falls (I think it was one in the short and two in the long). I'm a Chan-uber, but was like: how the heck to he get that score???
    Finally. The words of wisdom from a Chan uber. I wonder why your boy is not treated the same way on 20 pages like Mao is treated here . I have only one explanation- the board is mostly NA dominated. Kind of lame excuse, isn't it? You people keep forgetting one simple thing- if inflation starts in one place, it's sooner or later will shows up in another. And it's fair! Otherwise you are hypocrites. I am still waiting when Russians start harnessing their horses.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Finally. The words of wisdom from a Chan uber. I wonder why your boy is not treated the same way on 20 pages like Mao is treated here . I have only one explanation- the board is mostly NA dominated. Kind of lame excuse, isn't it? You people keep forgetting one simple thing- if inflation starts in one place, it's sooner or later will shows up in another. And it's fair! Otherwise you are hypocrites. I am still waiting when Russians start harnessing their horses.
    yeah the difference here is that Mao Asada never fell, just doubled some jumps, and she had a huge lead from the sp, and a skater winning due to a big lead in the sp, is pretty common, nothing new and happens all the time

    if i was Akiko or her fans i would be really happy for her score in the fs, that's the highest i have seen her score in the fs!

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    yeah the difference here is that Mao Asada never fell, just doubled some jumps[...]
    Which, as we have been thought by the powers that be, is even worse than falling...

    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    [...] and a skater winning due to a big lead in the sp, is pretty common, nothing new and happens all the time
    if i was Akiko or her fans i would be really happy for her score in the fs, that's the highest i have seen her score in the fs!
    Yeah, judges marks all over the place and skaters robbed of their victories... Nothing new, so it must be ok, I guess. Scores do not mean anything on their own, even high scores are not worth a thing if they don't translate into the correct placements.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Which, as we have been thought by the powers that be, is even worse than falling...



    Yeah, judges marks all over the place and skaters robbed of their victories... Nothing new, so it must be ok, I guess. Scores do not mean anything on their own, even high scores are not worth a thing if they don't translate into the correct placements.

    you see, this is your personal opinion, i have never stated anything like that. what i said was very plain and simple: winning due to a big lead after the short program is very common, Mao herself has lost many gold medals due to the sp and so have many other skaters. how you where able to misinterpret such a simple sentence is really a mystery to me

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    you see, this is your personal opinion, i have never stated anything like that. what i said was very plain and simple: winning due to a big lead after the short program is very common, Mao herself has lost many gold medals due to the sp and so have many other skaters. how you where able to misinterpret such a simple sentence is really a mystery to me
    Yeah, funnily enough, what happened here was not a win due to a big SP lead only, but due to some very mediocre judging of the LP too: how you can think Mao deserved higher P/E than Akiko is really a mystery to me

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Yeah, funnily enough, what happened here was not a win due to a big SP lead only, but due to some very mediocre judging of the LP too: how you can think Mao deserved higher P/E than Akiko is really a mystery to me
    If you actually compare how Mao and Akiko related their skating to the music, Mao's was much better. This is clear, e.g., when you compare the spins. Akiko spins through the music but Mao spins with the music, changing her positions with changes to the tempo of the music. Even the timing of the jumps, Mao's tends to jump with a rise in the music but Akiko's jumps aren't choreographed with the music. Also in terms of the step sequence, Mao's steps capture every nuance of the music change but Akiko's doesn't. This is why I think Mao's P/E is higher than Akiko's. This is a choreographic problem and can be addressed, because Akiko is no doubt able to skate with the music more precisely.

    Akiko did score much more than Mao did in the long program.

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.
    I would go one step farther. The tacit assumption in these discussions seems to be that the CoP is right and everyone else is wrong. When the audience boos at the men's podium at worlds and sits in stunned silence at the woman's podium at NHK (Japanese being more polite and less demonstrative than those rowdy Frenchmen ), the response of the establishment apologists is "read more protocol."

    Isn't it possible that the CoP is wrong and "everybody" is right?

  15. #300
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    I like COP, but in order to align COP to audience perception, jumps could be marked differently. More points on successful jumps, less penalization of under-rotation, more penalization of falls. That would probably do it. How would skating purists regard that??

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