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Thread: 2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate

  1. #301
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    If you actually compare how Mao and Akiko related their skating to the music, Mao's was much better. This is clear, e.g., when you compare the spins. Akiko spins through the music but Mao spins with the music, changing her positions with changes to the tempo of the music. Even the timing of the jumps, Mao's tends to jump with a rise in the music but Akiko's jumps aren't choreographed with the music. Also in terms of the step sequence, Mao's steps capture every nuance of the music change but Akiko's doesn't. This is why I think Mao's P/E is higher than Akiko's. This is a choreographic problem and can be addressed, because Akiko is no doubt able to skate with the music more precisely.

    Akiko did score much more than Mao did in the long program.
    It's just your personal opinion, and I don't agree at all (Not only me, but also other experts)


    Opining on NHK Trophy: Asada gets a gift, Miner steals the show by Jackie Wong
    Performance/Execution - Asada 7.95 vs. Suzuki 7.96
    For me, this is the mark that was the biggest culprit. Note that this is the closest of the five marks between the two skaters. The performance and execution of a program has a lot to do with how invested the skater is and how well all of the moves and elements that were choreographed were performed on the day of the performance. If you take a look at the criteria for the mark - intellectual involvement, carriage, clarity of movement, projection - Suzuki was strong in all areas throughout. In fact, she was getting stronger as the program went on. Asada, on the other hand, had lapses, understandably, as the mistakes piled on. All credit to Asada for not letting the program get away from her even with the mistakes, but there were very distinct moments of deflation in that program. Suzuki should have taken this mark by at least half a point.
    Interpretation - Asada 8.14 vs. Suzuki 7.82
    Much like the Performance/Execution mark, this is one that can fluctuate wildly for the same skater depending on the day and the circumstances. And while Asada's interpretation and finesse of the music didn't let up as much as her body language did, she was still not stronger than Suzuki, whose interpretation and finesse were spot on throughout. The difference should have been much less, if not the reverse, than what the judges scored.

    And again, from Tonny Wheeler
    Program components, to me, were where the total joke happened. Asada's program, for the first three or so minutes, has no life at all and she really could be skating to any music. Much like the jumps in this performance, it's just so on-and-off until the footwork starts to gain energy. Also, her fifth jump element comes two seconds before the half-way point. That's poor program planning in my opinion. She has nice basics and beautiful edges, but she really crawls through everything and doesn't do too much in terms of transitions. I've always felt that way about her, honestly.

    Suzuki has a nice program and was much more engaged. She has some nice transitional highlights and a great tension and build with the music. I do think she's not as strong as Asada skating skill-wise, but everything else should have been higher in my opinion. Asada pulled off scores mostly in the 8's for performance/execution (huh?), choreography, and interpretation. I just don't feel like she was into this program at all.

    From Phil Hersh
    https://twitter.com/olyphil
    The only good thing about Mao’s program was she stayed upright. Eurosport was polite in saying, “It did look a bit ragged.”
    Eurosport on Mao winning : “That’s ridiculous. That’s horrible. That’s a travesty of justice. That does the sport no favors”
    Mirai Nagasu got hosed. This was as egregiously bad judging as I ever have seen.

  2. #302
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    To naan:

    I also think Akiko exhibited alot of emotional exuberance in her performance, and these 'experts' are referring to that aspect of Akiko's performance. What I pointed out was that although Akiko gave a lively performance, her choreography doesn't highlight nuances of the music, and that's probably what's important under COP. If you watch the programs back to back and really look at the performances carefully without getting involved emotionally---and that's what COP does to skating---then it's no wonder Mao's P/E is higher.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    To naan:

    I also think Akiko exhibited alot of emotional exuberance in her performance, and these 'experts' are referring to that aspect of Akiko's performance. What I pointed out was that although Akiko gave a lively performance, her choreography doesn't highlight nuances of the music, and that's probably what's important under COP. If you watch the programs back to back and really look at the performances carefully without getting involved emotionally---and that's what COP does to skating---then it's no wonder Mao's P/E is higher.
    I watched their performances many times including Japan Open, SC, COC. I think Akiko's LP is very nice program with great transitions, choreography that highlights nuances of the music. Actually, it's one of my favorite programs this season.
    On the other hand, Mao's Swan lake is nothing special for the first three minutes until the footwork starts. No relation to the music, I don't feel like she was into this program at all. She could be skating to any music, I wasn't sure exactly what she was trying to do on the ice. I've seen many Swan lake programs before, but Mao's program is one of my least favorite swan lake programs. I think her SP is much better in terms of "nuances of the music". Mao is a great skater, but her LP and especially her performance at NHK was totally mess.

  4. #304
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Four out of her seven jump passes were a mess but she did everything else well. I actually think Akiko should have won. BUT, I also think both Akiko and Mao were marked correctly according to the standards of CoP. CoP is a strange creature. Its makers wanted a perfectly correct marking system, and yet, it somehow is not.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    To naan:

    I also think Akiko exhibited alot of emotional exuberance in her performance, and these 'experts' are referring to that aspect of Akiko's performance. What I pointed out was that although Akiko gave a lively performance, her choreography doesn't highlight nuances of the music, and that's probably what's important under COP. If you watch the programs back to back and really look at the performances carefully without getting involved emotionally---and that's what COP does to skating---then it's no wonder Mao's P/E is higher.
    I appreciate your answers. I think it is a problem in itself when we as fans have to try hard to come up to justify marks from the protocols and convince us that the juddes somehow got it right and the system was done justice or conversely that the system did justice to the performances. That's not how it should be. With regard to your observations re choreography: The judges having different opinions on the choreography component is ok, for example, but not to link one mark to another. Just as it is wrong to slot in all marks according to the skating skills component.

    P/E the official definition: "Performance is the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography" You yourself noticed that she exhibited a lot of emotional exhuberance. And how are we and for that matter the judges supposed to assess emotional involvement without getting involved emotionally? Does that even work? If as you say the COP asks for not getting involved emotionally, isn't that a paradox in itself when it comes to juding the P/E or INT components?

    I've watched the performances, I always hope to be emotionally involved, by the way. That's a good thing in skating. For me it's still a miracle how certain components were scored with regard to the performances. I did like the COP some three years ago, but despite some changes it doesn't really improve at all and I don't beliebe in it anymore. Certainly not enough to go to any lengths trying to justify marks that often seem arbitrary at best.

    If performance level and being into the programme and doing well do count for something than it seems the system does not account for it.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would go one step farther. The tacit assumption in these discussions seems to be that the CoP is right and everyone else is wrong. When the audience boos at the men's podium at worlds and sits in stunned silence at the woman's podium at NHK (Japanese being more polite and less demonstrative than those rowdy Frenchmen ), the response of the establishment apologists is "read more protocol."

    Isn't it possible that the CoP is wrong and "everybody" is right?
    As we've said before, if skating is too complicated for the fans to appreciate, then something is wrong. I don't watch a skater and then think, "Well, I'll know how he/she does as soon as I read the protocols." I want to watch the skater and take in the skating right there.

    I understand that in a close competition, the judges might declare one person the winner while I prefer another, and that's cool. (The 1998 ladies' long program, for example. What do I know, anyway?) But when two performances are so far apart that the entire audience is stunned by the results, then I wonder how the sport will be affected. If it's seen as completely arbitrary and incomprehensible, fans feel like outsiders. That's never a good thing.

  7. #307
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    naan, the quotes you posted are not from "experts". They are viewers who comment on what they see, just like the rest of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    To naan:

    I also think Akiko exhibited alot of emotional exuberance in her performance, and these 'experts' are referring to that aspect of Akiko's performance. What I pointed out was that although Akiko gave a lively performance, her choreography doesn't highlight nuances of the music, and that's probably what's important under COP. If you watch the programs back to back and really look at the performances carefully without getting involved emotionally---and that's what COP does to skating---then it's no wonder Mao's P/E is higher.
    Uh, no, it's not "no wonder."

    There are separate Choreography, and Interpretation sections of the PCS. There wouldn't be much as much of a controversy (at least personally speaking) if Mao still scored higher on those. The scoring of the Performance/Execution is just bizarre. The fact that you admit that Akiko gave a "lively performance" is exactly what the uproar is about.

    I think the judges at NHK did a huge injustice to both Akiko and Mao.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    naan, the quotes you posted are not from "experts". They are viewers who comment on what they see, just like the rest of us.

    Uh, no, it's not "no wonder."

    There are separate Choreography, and Interpretation sections of the PCS. There wouldn't be much as much of a controversy (at least personally speaking) if Mao still scored higher on those. The scoring of the Performance/Execution is just bizarre. The fact that you admit that Akiko gave a "lively performance" is exactly what the uproar is about.

    I think the judges at NHK did a huge injustice to both Akiko and Mao.
    Actually, when I looked at naan's post I realized that it was interpretation, not performance and execution, where Mao got a better score. She was marked correctly. Mao's choreography is better.

  9. #309
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Really? Did you forget how to do basic math or something? Mao finished 2nd in the LP and 1st in the SP while Mirai finished 3rd in the Lp and 2nd in the SP, how does that add up to Nagasu 2nd and Asada 3rd?

    I mean, if 1 + 1 = 3 for you, that I cannot help you.
    lol, why are you making fun of someone else's "math" when you can't figure out that Gold would have gone to Akiko under 6.0?

    Sounds like you cannot even help...yourself.

  10. #310
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Actually, when I looked at naan's post I realized that it was interpretation, not performance and execution, where Mao got a better score. She was marked correctly. Mao's choreography is better.
    Look again. Mao actually did get the higher P/E score. It's the first thing I compared to figure out how wonky the judging might have been.

    I won't dispute whether Mao has better Choreography. I prefer Mao, in general, to Akiko (sorry, as someone else said above, even when Akiko skates lights out she kind of bores me but that's a personal preference.) I also view Interpretation as suffering when one misses or botches a few too many jumps, but again, that's debatable. On the other hand, if Akiko wasn't clearly superior on performing the heck out of her program to an off-night Mao, I don't know what to say.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Actually, when I looked at naan's post I realized that it was interpretation, not performance and execution, where Mao got a better score. She was marked correctly. Mao's choreography is better.
    She did get better marks in both of these components, actually in all of them. What I'm really curious aboutis, if you think Akiko should have won, why are you defending the system or how the system supposedly assesses performances. (I do think in this case it's not only the system but also the judges that screwed up majorly)

  12. #312
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    I am not defending the system. I am only saying that Mao and Akiko's marks are correct according to CoP standards. CoP is strange, no doubt.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I am not defending the system. I am only saying that Mao and Akiko's marks are correct according to CoP standards. CoP is strange, no doubt.
    Then, what do you like about the CoP? That really interests me.

  14. #314
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    That anyone who cares can find out with a fair amount of precision why the scores are what they are. The score sheets tell me Akiko lacks transitions and musicality. And when you look carefully at their programs, that is a defensible position to take.

  15. #315
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    That anyone who cares can find out with a fair amount of precision why the scores are what they are. The score sheets tell me Akiko lacks...musicality.
    LOL... oh, boy.

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