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Thread: Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Now wait a minute! Let's back up a couple of posts. Miki Ando is drop dead gorgeous.

    http://www.sportfems.com/wp-content/...iki-ando-3.jpg
    I am sure you will find this pic of Mao and her sister even more "attractive".

  2. #107
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    What in the world...who cares about how good looking anyone is. This is about Suzuki Mathman is probably too old to date Ando anyways lol. Was she robbed = I think it is clear osmond or mao could possibly beat Suzuki depending on your perspective. The scores indicicate it was close.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    What is aesthetic if it does not account for beauty?

    Bare in mind I am not talking about whether something you or I find beautiful, but about subjective within the context of NHK taking place in Japan how Mao, Miki and Suzuki are perceived by JSF as #1. #2, #3 etc where media/commercial pressure certainly have played a large part too (Sport popularity, ice shows, sponsorships and so forth).
    That's a valid point. However, this is no longer "pageantry" that we are talking about. It's clear that Mao Asada is more marketable - she is much better known, has a greater fan base - reputation wise, Suzuki is no where near her. What I struggle with is that all of above has to do with her "look" as the OP believes. Was Kristi Yamaguchi less marketable than Michelle Kwan? Who was more beautiful of the two? Is Joannie Rochette very marketable because she was pretty? What about Yu Na Kim? Korea has no shortage of beautiful actresses, arguably, far more beautiful than Kim will ever be, but why is that Kim is far better known than pretty much all of them.

    It is my feeling it is this perceived ranking spilt onto PCS scoring and made the difference in the ranking. If beauty doesn't matter, why isn't Akiko favoured like Hanyu (who's certainly beautifu/skated beautifully, at least to me) seems to have over taken Kozuka this year as Japan's #2?
    I think the comparison you are making is flawed. Hanyu has won only 1 GP this season and Kozuka beat him, not the other way around. Shockingly, even Machida beat Hanyu in PCS at the same competition :

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa2012/SEG002.HTM

    Rather, I think this perception that Hanyu is somehow now the #1 Japanese man is primarily due to his high scoring SP and that he has defeated Takahashi at the NHK and perhaps because he has the highest ranking on the GP circuit of all Japanese men, second only to Patrick Chan. This however, can prove to be more an illusion than a reality. First of all, Machida also beat Takahashi at a GP. Hanyu's PCS has been quite beatable, in fact, he would only be 4th among Japanese men with his FS PCS, losing not only to Takahashi, but to Kozuka and Machida as well. I failed to see any deliberate favortism towards Hanyu. His success so far in the season is primarily due to his technical achievements. Not many Japanese man can do 2 Quads within a same program or skating clean SP with Quad. If anything, even Machida beat him on the Interpretation (IN) component during the head to head competition at Skate America, which tells me Hanyu's PCS is really not that great in relation to his peers (although I think they should be lower still but that's another subject).

    So it's hard to entertain your argument when Kozuka actually beat Hanyu this year and there is just no evidence to support Hanyu has been favored as far as the PCS are concerned. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind that Takahashi remains the far more marketable man in Japan. I think you are mistaking enthusiasm and momentum for favortism. Kozuka has been on the scene for a while, he is kind of on and off with his results but he is no longer new. Hanyu is new and very young, people are excited about his potential in a similar way that many have been excited by Katelyn Osmond. But that's not because Hanyu has better looks than Kozuka. To believe so is akin to say the tsunami that devastated Japan in 2011 was due to the wrath of the gods.


    (or Why Kozuka seem to have lost his PCS he deserve) And similarly why is the media there always obsessed with Mao when it is Miki who won the WC, and Akiko was the one podiumed last year?
    Like I demonstrated above, Kozuka still beats Hanyu on PCS by quite a bit. Kozuka has his own issues with PCS but it has nothing to do with whether Hanyu is prettier or Kozuka is not attractive. Mao's popularity is Japan was already several years deep, especially during the run up to the Vancouver Olympics when it was all about Kim vs. Asada. It's difficult to explain exactly why X skater is more popular than another but to blame it all on looks does seem a little careless.

    If this NHK competition took place in another Grand Prix say TEB, can you honestly say the results would have been same? That is my whole argument.
    This really puzzles me. Why not? Did you forget both Suzuki and Asada are Japanese? It's not as if the audience refused to clap and cheer Akiko when she skated. They were very supportive of both skaters as far as I can tell. I have no idea why you are so certain that if this were TEB, the result would necessarily be different.


    There's no doubt Mao is their perceived #1 favourite for the last quads and their big skater for Sochi as was the Vancouver, and while she is a great skater, Mao benefit a great deal from her beauty (yes including skating) that is practically a nice litte cottage industry in Japan that the sport benefit from. There's nothing wrong to acknowledge this because it happens to be true, it undoubtly benefited her through out her career.
    I think this is a case of paralysis through analysis. You think too much. There could be 1000 reasons why Mao is more marketable than Suzuki but look may not even be a decisive factor. When Elvis Stojko was king, was he considered attractive or handsome? He was so short, a lot of ladies would stand taller than him yet there was no doubt he was very marketable. So when he defeated Kurt Browning and took over the as #1 Canadian man, was it because he was more attractive than Kurt Browning? If looks matter so much, why was Kiira Korpi considered the #2 woman in Finland when Laura Lepisto was competing? I mean many people regard Kiira as by far the most beautiful female skater out there but why she never seems to win any major competition like the Europeans or a world medal which Laura Lepisto did?

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    She is overrated. I dont understand all the fan love for her. She is a nice skater, but nothing spectacular, definitely not someone who could ever win a World or Olympic title. She became a top skater only because of the weak field the last 2 years, period, the same weak field that Ando benefited from winning a World title past her prime in 2011, that Czisny benefited at one point from, that Wagner is taking advantage of now, that Kostner capatilized to win her first Worlds with reduced jump content, that Leonova has capatilized on, and so on. In 2007-2010 she never would have been a top skater at all, and never was of course. I am also still annoyed she got the last spot on the Japanese Olympic team over Nakano in 2010.
    This is laughable. If a skater like Miki Ando can win 2 world championships I see no reason why Suzuki cannot. She is a much better skater even if her jumps are not as big as Ando's. And sorry, Suzuki is a better skater than Nakano ever was.

    And some people talk about Asada's program as if it were jam packed like Patrick Chan's. In terms of transitions, yes she had a couple of nice spreadeagles, but mostly there were just a lot of stroking and three turns - how were her transitions so much more superior to Suzuki's? In general, I find her elegant and she sure has better extension than Akiko, but her intepretation in any program is just so generic and one-dimensional, and nothing really stands out. In terms of interpretation and sensitivity to the music, she doesn't even come close to Suzuki's level.
    Last edited by shine; 11-28-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    This is laughable. If a skater like Miki Ando can win 2 world championships I see no reason why Suzuki cannot. She is a much better skater even if her jumps are not as big as Ando's. And sorry, Suzuki is a better skater than Nakano ever was.
    This is all a matter of opinion. Barring the leg wrap, Nakano's was quite a lovely skater with much better spins than Akiko. Actually, I do think a lack of attention to extensions distracts from the performance. I felt Akiko improved in terms of extensions and lines in her LP last year, so I was disappointed to see her spins so lacking in this area in her LP this year.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    This is all a matter of opinion. Barring the leg wrap, Nakano's was quite a lovely skater with much better spins than Akiko. Actually, I do think a lack of attention to extensions distracts from the performance. I felt Akiko improved in terms of extensions and lines in her LP last year, so I was disappointed to see her spins so lacking in this area in her LP this year.
    Yes, I feel that Akiko's LP program is not PCS-friendly this year. It's like they decided to see how much she could score doing what Miki and Carolina did with their winning programs. Less attention paid to music and more concentration on just doing the jumps as and landing them as big and fast as possible. So in other words, attempting to increase GOE and less effort in increasing PCS. I think her musicality was displayed far more in previous season's programs.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    She {Akiko} is overrated.
    This says all. Akiko's skating is not as outstanding as her fans portrayed.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    This is laughable. If a skater like Miki Ando can win 2 world championships I see no reason why Suzuki cannot. She is a much better skater even if her jumps are not as big as Ando's.
    Well Ando is one of the most overscored skaters in skating history. Suzuki cant count on the same very rare level of overscoring. If every skater in history who was better than Ando had 2 or more World titles they would have to go back in time and hand out atleast 6 of them per year.

    Besides that Ando won the 2007 Worlds by doing perfect programs like 7 triple longs and triple lutz-triple loops in both programs. The gap in jumping between that and Suzuki is so enormous it already makes her better than Suzuki, especialy as no area of Suzuki's skating is as spectacular as Ando's jumping in the 06/07 season. As for 2011 Ando lucked out to peak at a really weak time for ladies skating, the others should have taken their chance since it is not likely to be that weak again for a long time to come.

    As for Nakano, Nakano's performances at the 2008 Worlds impressed me more than anything Suzuki has ever done. Nearly everyone thought she should have been the gold or silver medalist that year, everyone but the judges it turned out. That was when ladies skating was at a way higher level than it is now, basically the decline of ladies skating has made people like Czisny, Wagner, Suzuki, and even Leonova (blech) contenders. No disrespect to them, they are good skaters, but in 2007-2010 they would be buried. Comparing her to Suzuki her spins are way better, she does the triple axel which I cant imagine Suzuki doing and yes she often had it rotated and ratified, and artistically I found her just as good or at times better, and she was faster too. I dont see where Suzuki is so vastly superior, she beat an already declining Nakano for the last Olympic spot in 2010 by less than a point, and only since Nakano missed a triple lutz.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 11-29-2012 at 12:40 AM.

  9. #114
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Still, the question remains. What do we think of a scoring system that awards the gold medal to a performance featuring 2Lo, 2fLz, 1S, and 2F'?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Still, the question remains. What do we think of a scoring system that awards the gold medal to a performance featuring 2Lo, 2fLz, 1S, and 2F'?
    Bizarre.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    In general, I find her elegant and she sure has better extension than Akiko, but her intepretation in any program is just so generic and one-dimensional, and nothing really stands out. In terms of interpretation and sensitivity to the music, she doesn't even come close to Suzuki's level.
    ITA. Replace the first half of her Swam FS music with Liebestraume, and you wouldn't notice the difference. Her 2010-2011 tango was a disaster. Suzuki is much more versatile and always projects very different images in SP and FS.

    I also fail to see how Asada's skating skills are superior to Suzuki's. Suzuki has much more speed and deeper edges than Asada.
    Last edited by mikeko666; 11-29-2012 at 05:29 AM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I am also still annoyed she got the last spot on the Japanese Olympic team over Nakano in 2010.
    Nakano's peak was 2007-2008 and she started declining after that season. She deserved to be on the podium in the 2008 Worlds, but just like Suzuki, she was never one of JSF's favorites. She deserved to go to the Olympics in 2006 not in 2010. Because JSF was heavily criticized for sacrificing Nakano to send Ando to Turin, they tried really hard to send Nakano to Vancouver, and failed. Suzuki was just unstoppable. JSF hasn't change a bit since 2006 and they will send Asada to Sochi in 2014 even if she is no longer able to fully rotate triples just like they sent Ando to Turin. Her 3F in SP at NHK was under-rotated, and the judges simply turned blind eyes to it.
    Last edited by mikeko666; 11-29-2012 at 06:58 AM.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    ITA. Replace the first half of her Swam FS music with Liebestraume, and you wouldn't notice the difference. Her 2010-2011 tango was a disaster. Suzuki is much more versatile and always projects very different images in SP and FS.

    I also fail to see how Asada's skating skills are superior to Suzuki's. Suzuki has much more speed and deeper edges than Asada.
    I disagree with this: the only thing that Akiko has better (speaking just about SS) is the speed, but, however, it requires her a lot of cross-overs to gain it, when the speed is actually Asada's weak part of PCS (I agree), but Mao's ability in using the edges and her flow on the ice is much better than Akiko's!

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I disagree with this: the only thing that Akiko has better (speaking just about SS) is the speed, but, however, it requires her a lot of cross-overs to gain it, when the speed is actually Asada's weak part of PCS (I agree), but Mao's ability in using the edges and her flow on the ice is much better than Akiko's!
    I don't know, if I were to watch them side by side, I'd think Akiko has deeper edges with more speed throughout her whole footwork while Mao uses shallow edges in a large portion of her Swan Lake step sequence. But I think it's more about the program itself, because Mao has been demonstrating that she has deep edges in previous programs, say, Liebestraume. I love how Mao gracefully glides across the ice but her speed sometimes drives me to nuts. She's surprisingly slow for her caliber.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I disagree with this: the only thing that Akiko has better (speaking just about SS) is the speed, but, however, it requires her a lot of cross-overs to gain it, when the speed is actually Asada's weak part of PCS (I agree), but Mao's ability in using the edges and her flow on the ice is much better than Akiko's!
    That means she can't control her edges unless she slows down. Maybe that's why she popped triples to doubles when she tried to maintain her speed in FS at NHK.

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