Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 208

Thread: Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS?

  1. #121
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    That means she can't control her edges unless she slows down. Maybe that's why she popped triples to doubles when she tried to maintain her speed in FS at NHK.
    Mao regularly gets level-4 step sequence ratified with huge GOEs, so edge control is clearly not her problem. She's just learning a new timing to her jumps with a faster entry speed, that's all.

  2. #122
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    161
    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    She's just learning a new timing to her jumps with a faster entry speed, that's all.
    That's something she should have tried two years ago when she started training with Mr. Sato. What has she been doing with her jump technique for the last two years?

    When Suzuki was trying to master 3T+3T last season, she also said that speed was the key. She calls herself a slow learner, but it took her less than a year to become consistent with the combo.

  3. #123
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    35
    Hi, I just registered today and became a new member. I saw Asada live. She was quite slow, and she made too many mistakes. Her pcs was quite high compared to what she put out on ice. I heard the audience booing after her score showed up.

    Akiko's program did not have too many transitions either, but she was clean and should win. Akiko also should improve her spins-i think that interferes her program. Mirai and Asada had better spins.

    Just my two cents after watching some live competitions.

  4. #124
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    That's something she should have tried two years ago when she started training with Mr. Sato. What has she been doing with her jump technique for the last two years?

    When Suzuki was trying to master 3T+3T last season, she also said that speed was the key. She calls herself a slow learner, but it took her less than a year to become consistent with the combo.
    Mao doesn't owe you anything, you know.

    Anyway, quite obviously, her toe pick has changed, and I also read that they had to work on her getting rid of a habit she had of lifting her left or right (forget which) shoulder when she jumped. She's no longer jumping as high now, probably so that the final form will not only have height but width as well, in order to get more GOEs. So I think the past two seasons has been slowly changing her form. Now, they are working on her entry speed. I think overhauling a jump technique must be very time-consuming, quite a gamble, really. (And don't forget, she was quite preoccupied with her mother's illness, which also had huge impact on her father; he donated his organ for transplant.)

    As her fan, I hope and trust that she will perfect her new jump in time for Sochi!!

    I know the audience audibly murmured in surprise when Mao's score came up, but I don't believe a Japanese audience would ever boo Mao or her score. That is quite unthinkable.

  5. #125
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    2,801
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    That's something she should have tried two years ago when she started training with Mr. Sato. What has she been doing with her jump technique for the last two years?

    When Suzuki was trying to master 3T+3T last season, she also said that speed was the key. She calls herself a slow learner, but it took her less than a year to become consistent with the combo.
    And she still isn't, she landed it three times out of five attempts last year and this season she has already tried it two times and landed cleanily just one... Kostner didn't make a mistake in the 3T+3T throughout all the season, this is consistency!

  6. #126
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    Hi, I just registered today and became a new member. I saw Asada live. She was quite slow, and she made too many mistakes. Her pcs was quite high compared to what she put out on ice. I heard the audience booing after her score showed up.

    Akiko's program did not have too many transitions either, but she was clean and should win. Akiko also should improve her spins-i think that interferes her program. Mirai and Asada had better spins.

    Just my two cents after watching some live competitions.
    What? You think that Asada has as few transitions as Suzuki? This is ridculous! Have you even watched their programs? Or maybe you just don't know what transitions are? I don't like when some posters don't like a skater and write things that might make not so knowledgable fans think the same way.

    Regardless of how transitionless were Asada's Masquerade Waltz and Bells of Moscow, this time Tarasova created a work of art for CoP. This is the best CoP-like program Mao has ever had with transitions going into almost EVERY single jump. Not only did Tarasova make up interesting and fresh choreography for such an overused piece of music, but also she put all the CoP things into it without losing connection to music and theme of the program.

    Now, whart transitions does Akiko program have? I find her choreography very interesting and and interpretation of that bird theme very good but transitions? Come on, she doesn't have any transitions going into and out of the jumps. Let her skate Asada program and see if she's still able to land her jumps. I know Akiko is super consistent with the jumps, her age notwithstanding but what if she was to do difficult steps, or even SOME steps before all those jumps? I'm afraid the outcome might be different then.

    Let's look at those programs in more detailed way. Akiko has some easy transitions but not directly going into the the jumps or immediately after landing the jumps. She always does simple glides into her jumps and maybe a mohawak or a three-turn, that is what every skater can do and what I don't consider difficult transitions. Her landings are always simple run-outs, usually with good flowout, that's right but with no additional difficulty.

    1. short easy spiral, break for set up, mohawk, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, simple exit
    2. standard one-foot glide into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating almost through the whole rink with 2 turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. straight glide with a mohawk into 3Lz, sinple exit
    5. one-foot glide into 3Lo+2T, simple exit
    6. a simple turn into 3S, simple exit
    7. the same one-foot glide into 3Lo, simple exit

    No transitions maybe beside that breif spiral. Now, having said that, Akiko is one of my favourite lady skating nowadays and overall I like her FS a lot. I admire her SS with deep edges and knee bent as well as her energy. I would give her high marks for CH, P/E and I as well but not for transitions. Let Akiko skate her program with Mao's transitions and see what would happen.

    Now look at Asada's Swan Lake. I will omit interesting choreography and focus only on technical transitions which make the jumps more difficult to land.

    1. a few turns leading directly into 3Lo with no long glide, interesting exit with little ina bauer right after landing
    2. standard one-foot glide like in Akiko's program going into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating through the rink with spread eagle and four turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. long and rather simple entry to 3Lz, difficult exit with free leg raised high above hips level
    5. just one turn into 3S, simple exit
    6. nice approach to 3Lo+2Lo with little ina bauer, little back spiral and some steps, simple exit
    7. difficult entrance with steps and very short set-up into 3F+2Lo+2Lo(tano arm), simple exit

    The only two jumping passes that has no additional difficulty are 2A+3T which is supposed be 3A later on so that's understandable and 3S which is Mao's least favourite jump. Apart from that, there many transitions in other places like beautiful spread eagles in slow section or those turns at the end of the program whose name I don't know. Mao's spins are much better than Akiko's ad well and her level 4 step sequence is a piece of art in my opinion.

  7. #127
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,056
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    What? You think that Asada has as few transitions as Suzuki? This is ridculous! Have you even watched their programs? Or maybe you just don't know what transitions are? I don't like when some posters don't like a skater and write things that might make not so knowledgable fans think the same way.

    Regardless of how transitionless were Asada's Masquerade Waltz and Bells of Moscow, this time Tarasova created a work of art for CoP. This is the best CoP-like program Mao has ever had with transitions going into almost EVERY single jump. Not only did Tarasova make up interesting and fresh choreography for such an overused piece of music, but also she put all the CoP things into it without losing connection to music and theme of the program.

    Now, whart transitions does Akiko program have? I find her choreography very interesting and and interpretation of that bird theme very good but transitions? Come on, she doesn't have any transitions going into and out of the jumps. Let her skate Asada program and see if she's still able to land her jumps. I know Akiko is super consistent with the jumps, her age notwithstanding but what if she was to do difficult steps, or even SOME steps before all those jumps? I'm afraid the outcome might be different then.

    Let's look at those programs in more detailed way. Akiko has some easy transitions but not directly going into the the jumps or immediately after landing the jumps. She always does simple glides into her jumps and maybe a mohawak or a three-turn, that is what every skater can do and what I don't consider difficult transitions. Her landings are always simple run-outs, usually with good flowout, that's right but with no additional difficulty.

    1. short easy spiral, break for set up, mohawk, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, simple exit
    2. standard one-foot glide into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating almost through the whole rink with 2 turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. straight glide with a mohawk into 3Lz, sinple exit
    5. one-foot glide into 3Lo+2T, simple exit
    6. a simple turn into 3S, simple exit
    7. the same one-foot glide into 3Lo, simple exit

    No transitions maybe beside that breif spiral. Now, having said that, Akiko is one of my favourite lady skating nowadays and overall I like her FS a lot. I admire her SS with deep edges and knee bent as well as her energy. I would give her high marks for CH, P/E and I as well but not for transitions. Let Akiko skate her program with Mao's transitions and see what would happen.

    Now look at Asada's Swan Lake. I will omit interesting choreography and focus only on technical transitions which make the jumps more difficult to land.

    1. a few turns leading directly into 3Lo with no long glide, interesting exit with little ina bauer right after landing
    2. standard one-foot glide like in Akiko's program going into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating through the rink with spread eagle and four turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. long and rather simple entry to 3Lz, difficult exit with free leg raised high above hips level
    5. just one turn into 3S, simple exit
    6. nice approach to 3Lo+2Lo with little ina bauer, little back spiral and some steps, simple exit
    7. difficult entrance with steps and very short set-up into 3F+2Lo+2Lo(tano arm), simple exit

    The only two jumping passes that has no additional difficulty are 2A+3T which is supposed be 3A later on so that's understandable and 3S which is Mao's least favourite jump. Apart from that, there many transitions in other places like beautiful spread eagles in slow section or those turns at the end of the program whose name I don't know. Mao's spins are much better than Akiko's ad well and her level 4 step sequence is a piece of art in my opinion.
    Thank you for this analysis.

  8. #128
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,071
    Thank you Bartek for your detailed analysis, much appreciated.

  9. #129
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9,495
    Bartek, thanks for the analysis. I'll look back at both programs keeping your notes in mind. So you feel that Mao has potential to improve later this season and into the pre-Olympic season? I hope you'll say yes! I am so anxious for her, and I want her to stand on both the World and Olympic podiums--at the top if at all possible. Even if I weren't such a huge fan of hers (and you know that I am), I'd want her to do well because I love the idea of someone rebuilding her skating inch by inch. This takes incredible work and commitment, and to see it succeed would be tremendously impressive.

  10. #130
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I disagree with this: the only thing that Akiko has better (speaking just about SS) is the speed, but, however, it requires her a lot of cross-overs to gain it, when the speed is actually Asada's weak part of PCS (I agree), but Mao's ability in using the edges and her flow on the ice is much better than Akiko's!
    I agree. I am a little confused about all this praise for Akiko's speed. I've rewatched her LP a couple of times and while she isn't slow, I don't find her all that fast either. I've also tried to love her LP this year after hearing all the praise but can't seem to get into it. Her LP last year is far superior in my opinion.

  11. #131
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Bartek, thanks for the analysis. I'll look back at both programs keeping your notes in mind. So you feel that Mao has potential to improve later this season and into the pre-Olympic season? I hope you'll say yes! I am so anxious for her, and I want her to stand on both the World and Olympic podiums--at the top if at all possible. Even if I weren't such a huge fan of hers (and you know that I am), I'd want her to do well because I love the idea of someone rebuilding her skating inch by inch. This takes incredible work and commitment, and to see it succeed would be tremendously impressive.
    Definitely I do think that Mao shows progress. People just don't understand how long and difficult is the process of changing your jump technique. Before Mao came to Nabuo Sato she'd been doing those jumps in a certain way since she was a little kid. Now, she's had to change her technique, approach the jumps with more speed, add transitions before and after which she hadn't had before or had much less. This is all really difficult and time-consuming. Mao has probably the most difficult FS this season and this is why she sometimes misses a few of her jumps but she definitely shows progress. At NHK she landed a perfect 2A+3T. What's more, the whole last season or even last two seasons she had to train and compete bearing in mind the situation of her mother. This season Mao is definitely better than Mao from the beginning of the post-Vancouver season. I expect her to improve slowly but surely up to Sochi and hopefully medal there or even win.

    Speaking of their SS, that's right that Akiko is faster but notice how many crossovers she does between her jumps and generally how much time she needs to gain speed. Mao does very little crossovers because most of the time she does some steps and turns. I was really surprised that Tarasova gave Mao so little space to gain speed before her most difficult and speed-consuming combo in the program - 3F+2Lo+2Lo. This combination is prone to underrotation therefore it needs a lot of speed in order to be landed flawlessly. The whole thing is even more difficult because of difficult entrance and tano variation. This might be the only mistake in this program that Tarasova made unless she expects Mao to be able to land it cleanly despite the difficulties.

  12. #132
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,618
    thanks for the detailed analysis, Bartek. I have the deepest respect for skaters who try to rework jump technique - Rochette always had my admiration for that, and Mao does too. It is a gamble; I hope it works for her - but if it doesn't, I will still be impressed with the effort and courage; and, while I was not happy with the results, find much to enjoy in her program. I also just like watching her skate even when not her best.

  13. #133
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,819
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post

    Let's look at those programs in more detailed way. Akiko has some easy transitions but not directly going into the the jumps or immediately after landing the jumps. She always does simple glides into her jumps and maybe a mohawak or a three-turn, that is what every skater can do and what I don't consider difficult transitions. Her landings are always simple run-outs, usually with good flowout, that's right but with no additional difficulty.

    1. short easy spiral, break for set up, mohawk, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, simple exit
    2. standard one-foot glide into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating almost through the whole rink with 2 turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. straight glide with a mohawk into 3Lz, sinple exit
    5. one-foot glide into 3Lo+2T, simple exit
    6. a simple turn into 3S, simple exit
    7. the same one-foot glide into 3Lo, simple exit

    No transitions maybe beside that breif spiral. Now, having said that, Akiko is one of my favourite lady skating nowadays and overall I like her FS a lot. I admire her SS with deep edges and knee bent as well as her energy. I would give her high marks for CH, P/E and I as well but not for transitions. Let Akiko skate her program with Mao's transitions and see what would happen.

    Now look at Asada's Swan Lake. I will omit interesting choreography and focus only on technical transitions which make the jumps more difficult to land.

    1. a few turns leading directly into 3Lo with no long glide, interesting exit with little ina bauer right after landing
    2. standard one-foot glide like in Akiko's program going into 2A+3T, simple exit
    3. skating through the rink with spread eagle and four turns into 3F, simple exit
    4. long and rather simple entry to 3Lz, difficult exit with free leg raised high above hips level
    5. just one turn into 3S, simple exit
    6. nice approach to 3Lo+2Lo with little ina bauer, little back spiral and some steps, simple exit
    7. difficult entrance with steps and very short set-up into 3F+2Lo+2Lo(tano arm), simple exit

    The only two jumping passes that has no additional difficulty are 2A+3T which is supposed be 3A later on so that's understandable and 3S which is Mao's least favourite jump. Apart from that, there many transitions in other places like beautiful spread eagles in slow section or those turns at the end of the program whose name I don't know. Mao's spins are much better than Akiko's ad well and her level 4 step sequence is a piece of art in my opinion.
    Well written and argued, I concur. Sadly, the above has already been pointed out and discussed in details a week ago here, including painstakingly made video clips to visualize Akiko Suzuki's lack of transitions in / out of her jumps :

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post682571

    What gives? Many continued to believe that Suzuki is a victim of some conspiracy or that Mao Asada is favored on purpose because she is more "beautiful". There are some good reasons why this woman has been having difficulty climbing to the top echelon of her sport and despite being 27 year old already, achieved less than her younger teammates. So when she lost Skate Canada to a 16 year old teenager earlier this year in part because of the closeness of their PCS, it was not unexpected to those who know her limits. But of course, now that history repeats again, you gotta wonder maybe those different panels at two separate competitions both saw something that suggest Suzuki is not a victim but rather she needs to work harder still.

  14. #134
    skating philosopher
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,244
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Well written and argued, I concur. Sadly, the above has already been pointed out and discussed in details a week ago here, including painstakingly made video clips to visualize Akiko Suzuki's lack of transitions in / out of her jumps :

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post682571

    What gives? Many continued to believe that Suzuki is a victim of some conspiracy or that Mao Asada is favored on purpose because she is more "beautiful". There are some good reasons why this woman has been having difficulty climbing to the top echelon of her sport and despite being 27 year old already, achieved less than her younger teammates. So when she lost Skate Canada to a 16 year old teenager earlier this year in part because of the closeness of their PCS, it was not unexpected to those who know her limits. But of course, now that history repeats again, you gotta wonder maybe those different panels at two separate competitions both saw something that suggest Suzuki is not a victim but rather she needs to work harder still.
    Um, no. Perhaps the original thread title is as such, but I have never believed in the conspiracy theories and neither do a lot of people.

    As I said in the other threads, I don't deny that Mao has more transitions or better skating skills and fine with her winning in those areas, but I do not see, per the bulllet points and watching the performances a number of times, how Mao can beat Akiko in the CH/PE/IN. Perhaps I need to go and do the same type of post you did.

    But to be fair, Tony Wheeler and Jackie Wong did that for me.

    Neither of them seem to be one to be outraged for no reason and both take the time to consider each of the PCS criteria. You might not agree with every point, but again this emphasizes that not everyone who disagrees with the result is some sort of conspiracy theorist.

    So Mao gets a break on her mistakes because of her hard work on her jumping technique (which has been pointed out by several posters and I for one admire) or she's challenging herself with a more difficult program, but Akiko's mistakes means she's not working hard enough? Huh.

  15. #135
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    830
    Forget the PCS comparison for a moment. Let's assume that each skater earned the PCS they got.

    What about TES and GOE? Why did Mao receive +1.20 for her 2A/3T combination and Akiko 0.80? They both had the same set-up as Bartek points out; both had good height/distance on the axel and good flow into and out of the element. No creative exits for either of them. They did enough for +1. Yet Mao received more for...what?

    Why did Mao receive 0.26 for her opening double loop (going crooked in the air from the start), and why was she penalized only -.21 for her double lutz that got an edge call? Why did she get a +2 from one judge (and some +1s) for her 2F?

    Just change the GOE that she was awarded for one of those elements and there you have it, Akiko wins as she deserved to. Mao arguably deserves higher PCS than Akiko in SS and TR, but that doesn't mean she still deserved to win overall. Oh yeah, and Mao's 3F in the SP was underrotated.

    I was curious and I looked up Laura Lepisto's protocols from her much maligned 2010 Worlds FS, where she popped three intended triples into nice neat doubles. I discovered something interesting--she received ZERO GOE for each of those popped jumps. And it has nothing to do with a lack of transitions, because Laura's FS that season was stacked with transitions everywhere, more difficult than what Mao had in her program. She skated with great speed, too. Of all the rule changes that have been made since then, I don't think any encourage judges to give out more +GOE to popped jumps on the elite senior level. But that's what happened here, and that enabled Mao to win.

Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •