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Thread: Should the JSF be promoting Hanyu before Takahashi?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Dai and Chan now skate with speed, attack, good choreography. These two are the class of the field. If Javi goes clean, he is far more the complete skater than Hanyu, who is often out of ceontrol. He wins, as did Pat before and now by getting a big lead in SP. If Javier gets his quads consistent, he's as good as anyone-total package skater. World's I hope will not go the way of rep judging.
    I just registered today and became a new member, but I'm shocked by this poster. How is Javier going to be a total package skater? I've seen him skating live, and his skating skills are really awful and his spins are awful too. He only has jumps, and his jumps are also somewhat small. How can anyone think he has total package?

    Also, having seen Daisuke live, his skating skills are also very overrated. Some of his fans post as if his skating skills and transitions are as good as Chan, but that's just not true. When I saw Daisuke, he was much slower than Hanyu, and both Kozuka and Hanyu had deeper edges than Daisuke. Hanyu also had really good ice coverage in the sp-almost as good as Chan-but not so in the lp-maybe due to his stamina, but Dai's ice coverage was not good in both programs. The only thing Daisuke is superior is the footwork, he had really nice footwork! but this season Dai's programs also have fewer transitions and generic choreography. I think the PCS Daisuke is getting is quite high compared to what he put on ice. It's already based on rep judging.

    Just my two cents after seeing some live competitions.

  2. #47
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    In that poster's defense, she does not generally have the opportunity to see skaters live.

  3. #48
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    Hanyu (Finlandia, SA, NHK)
    average 4T/4S 9.79
    average 3A 10.84

    Takahashi(JO, COC, NHK)
    average 4T 6.00
    average 3A 8.76

    So the average difference is about 17.5.
    20 is a bit exaggerated but not far off the mark.

  4. #49
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    In that poster's defense, she does not generally have the opportunity to see skaters live.
    Well I have (not NHK) and I disagree with the majority of what is said in post #46.

  5. #50
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    ITA. Dai poor skating skills? Overrated? It seems a Hanyu booster popped in and also like Chan's SS. Congrats on seeing live competitions. I'm sure it help's to assess speed but Dai is never generic. H'e has way more polish, mature-my real point is hoping he isn't pushed aside by Hanyu the jumper. Dai has one decade more of life/skating, natch he is better in all ways-except jumping.

    Both Dai's SP and LP are worth watching. Hanyu is right now a SP skater. Dai is the best Japanese male ever.

  6. #51
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    I can't argue the deep technicalities one way or another, but I know that Daisuke's skating is magical for me, and Hanyu's is merely excellent.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    I just registered today and became a new member, but I'm shocked by this poster. How is Javier going to be a total package skater? I've seen him skating live, and his skating skills are really awful and his spins are awful too. He only has jumps, and his jumps are also somewhat small. How can anyone think he has total package?

    Also, having seen Daisuke live, his skating skills are also very overrated. Some of his fans post as if his skating skills and transitions are as good as Chan, but that's just not true. When I saw Daisuke, he was much slower than Hanyu, and both Kozuka and Hanyu had deeper edges than Daisuke. Hanyu also had really good ice coverage in the sp-almost as good as Chan-but not so in the lp-maybe due to his stamina, but Dai's ice coverage was not good in both programs. The only thing Daisuke is superior is the footwork, he had really nice footwork! but this season Dai's programs also have fewer transitions and generic choreography. I think the PCS Daisuke is getting is quite high compared to what he put on ice. It's already based on rep judging.

    Just my two cents after seeing some live competitions.
    Aesthetics, welcome to GS! I agree with your assessment, especially the bolded part. Takahashi's skating skill is among top skaters but certainly not outstanding. Jeremy Abbott has better skating skills than Takahashi. Between Takahashi, Hanyu, and Kozuka, seems that Takahashi could do more complicated transitions. But Hanyu is faster! It's amazing that he could do so well on those technical elements. But he still has a long way to go on skating skills. His skating is not that smooth. He's only 17. He will someday.

    I, too, don't like this push on Hanyu and leaves Takahashi cold (well, a little bit at least) by JSF. Now it must be in Takahashi's mind after NHK that he is the second best in JSF's eyes. I'm afraid that this will be the tone at Japan Nationals.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-30-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  8. #53
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    ^Link please to Dai's "thoughts" or is this just your opinion.

  9. #54
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    In my opinion JSF should promote both of them and perhaps also a bit the skater who will be 3rd Japanese skater at Worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Now it must be in Takahashi's mind after NHK that he is the second best in JSF's eyes. I'm afraid that this will be the tone at Japan Nationals.
    Huh? Takahashi was the second best based on his own skating in NHK...
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-30-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  10. #55
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    How funny the way you read a part of my post and twisted them in totally different ways. I take it that you both must have read it in a hurry!

    No, it was just my obscure view. I believe we won't see three-fall-in-one-program Takahashi takes the gold this year at Japan Nationals like last year.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-30-2012 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #56
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    If Hanyu scores 95 plus in the SP I believe he could have a 3 fall LP and win Gold. Same scenario as last season at Japan Nationals just a different skater.
    Just saying......

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    ITA. Dai poor skating skills? Overrated? It seems a Hanyu booster popped in and also like Chan's SS. Congrats on seeing live competitions. I'm sure it help's to assess speed but Dai is never generic. H'e has way more polish, mature-my real point is hoping he isn't pushed aside by Hanyu the jumper. Dai has one decade more of life/skating, natch he is better in all ways-except jumping.

    Both Dai's SP and LP are worth watching. Hanyu is right now a SP skater. Dai is the best Japanese male ever.
    Is this what you do here? Calling a poster someone’s booster when he/she disagree with you? so skateluvr, Olympia, and demarinis5 are all Daisuke boosters? I’m a Lambiel uber, to me his programs are always aesthetically pleasing and I love his spins. I’m not an uber of Chan and Hanyu. I don’t like both Hanyu and Daisuke’s LPs this season-I think both of their programs are generic and a step backward from their nice LPs last season and their choreographers should be fired for giving them these generic programs. Hanyu’s LP may have technical difficulty and transitions, but still I didn’t like it when I saw it live.

    As for Chan, I haven’t liked any of Chan’s programs and almost hated him and the judges when he won in Nice. But if it’s about SS, then I think he has the best SS now.

    I did not say Dai has poor SS. I said Javier has Poor SS, not Dai. This is what you posted that shocked me

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Dai and Chan now skate with speed, attack, good choreography. These two are the class of the field. If Javier gets his quads consistent, he's as good as anyone-total package skater.
    Because you said Dai and Chan skate with speed, attack, good choreography, I disagreed with you-Dai doesn’t have Chan’s speed and attack and he doesn’t have good choreography this season. Javier has poor skating skills, poor spins, and sometimes his jumps are small. I don’t think he is a complete package skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    In that poster's defense, she does not generally have the opportunity to see skaters live.
    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    Well I have (not NHK) and I disagree with the majority of what is said in post #46.
    When was the last time you saw Daisuke live? In Vancouver for instance when I saw him he really had good skating skills and really good programs-best programs besides those of Lambiel. Dai was class of the field in Vancouver. Too bad the last two seasons each time I saw him his skating skills became worse and worse. In Nice for instance I saw he became much slower and did not have edges and ice coverage like he used to, but he at least had good programs and many transitions. In Sendai his skating skills became even worse and slower than in Nice, and he had fewer transitions and generic programs-maybe it’s due to him getting older and SS become worse with the age or due to him putting more quads so he had to take out transitions and skate slower. I think his PCS at NHK is more rep judging-he used to have good SS and transitions and nice programs and he built a reputation of these things, but what he put out on the ice at NHK did not show all these things.

    Of course that was just comparing Daisuke with his old self and other top men. Daisuke’s skating skills are still much better than Javier and Miner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Aesthetics, welcome to GS! I agree with your assessment, especially the bolded part. Takahashi's skating skill is among top skaters but certainly not outstanding. Jeremy Abbott has better skating skills than Takahashi. Between Takahashi, Hanyu, and Kozuka, seems that Takahashi could do more complicated transitions. But Hanyu is faster! It's amazing that he could do so well on those technical elements. But he still has a long way to go on skating skills. His skating is not that smooth. He's only 17. He will someday.
    Thank you for the welcome. Abbott has really good skating skills, he’s an old skater now and he still has edge work and transitions at this age, wonderful! But he’s also getting slower-not as fast as before-maybe also due to him getting older or working with quads. I think among Japanese men, Kozuka has deepest edges-his edges are a thing of beauty like Chan and Abbott, but too bad Kozuka is somewhat too slow for a top skater. In Nice he was much slower than Daisuke (even in the sp), not to mention Chan and Hanyu. As for transitions, I agree that Daisuke can do very complicated transitions, he did so in the past. But somehow this season his transitions are not as good as before. I did not see his transitions any more complicated than Hanyu at NHK-again I think this is due to Dai putting more quads this season and he had to take out transitions.

  13. #58
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    This notion that federations promote one skater over another is old fashioned and out of touch. In the past, it was necessary for skaters to "wait their turn" and federations did politk and promote skaters. By the past, I'm talking 30 years ago. That doesn't happen today. Skaters promote themselves by what they do on the ice. The Japanese federation is basically standing back and letting judges decide who is the best - same for the women. These rumours that federations promote skaters are like conspiracy theories. Everybody is certain so much more is going on in the background that there really is.

    Daisuke has been skating at the elite level for 10 years and there's good in that and not so good. Two knee surgerys can slow you down (see Evgeny Plushenko), but years of performance experience are not without value and Daisuke is the best performer in figure skating. But he has never been the most consistent skater - brilliant one competition and crashing and burning the next. He is now consistent enough that he generally skates very well, but time and knee surgergies are have taken their toll on his jumps. Is it enough to keep him ahead of younger, fresher legs withs great skills? Time will tell.

    Aesthetics is right. Daisuke is not the fastest skater and his edges arent the deepest out there, but his blade skills and his performances are wonderful. I haven't seen Hanyu live to make a comparison, but I'm impressed that he's scored well over 90 points in his SP in back to back events, and when I watched the SP it was a huge WOW!!!

    I just feel joy watching the Men right now - so many AMAZING skaters. We've never had fields THIS good in all the years I've watched skating. Who wins if they all skate well? We do.

  14. #59
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    I don't think any federation should be pushing or promoting their skater(s). As for the debate about skating skills I think Javier, Dai, chan, Hanyu, Kozuka all have great SS. Chan, like or hate him, probably the best still though overall - edge quality, depth, speed (not saying he is fastest but overall best SS. Like his choices or not right now he has overall probably the best programs. He may need to work on another quad without the secnod 3A BUT no one yet (Hanyu is close) has demonstrated they are that consistent with the quad. Before I get jumped on Kozuka, Javier, Murakami, maybe even Dai and chan's have been shakey are getting close but we all know for example Javier runs hot and cold.

  15. #60
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    This notion that federations promote one skater over another is old fashioned and out of touch. In the past, it was necessary for skaters to "wait their turn" and federations did politk and promote skaters. By the past, I'm talking 30 years ago. That doesn't happen today. Skaters promote themselves by what they do on the ice. The Japanese federation is basically standing back and letting judges decide who is the best - same for the women. These rumours that federations promote skaters are like conspiracy theories. Everybody is certain so much more is going on in the background that there really is.

    Daisuke has been skating at the elite level for 10 years and there's good in that and not so good. Two knee surgerys can slow you down (see Evgeny Plushenko), but years of performance experience are not without value and Daisuke is the best performer in figure skating. But he has never been the most consistent skater - brilliant one competition and crashing and burning the next. He is now consistent enough that he generally skates very well, but time and knee surgergies are have taken their toll on his jumps. Is it enough to keep him ahead of younger, fresher legs withs great skills? Time will tell.

    Aesthetics is right. Daisuke is not the fastest skater and his edges arent the deepest out there, but his blade skills and his performances are wonderful. I haven't seen Hanyu live to make a comparison, but I'm impressed that he's scored well over 90 points in his SP in back to back events, and when I watched the SP it was a huge WOW!!!

    I just feel joy watching the Men right now - so many AMAZING skaters. We've never had fields THIS good in all the years I've watched skating. Who wins if they all skate well? We do.


    Totally agree DL!
    Last edited by demarinis5; 12-03-2012 at 09:27 AM.

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