Should the JSF be promoting Hanyu before Takahashi? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Should the JSF be promoting Hanyu before Takahashi?

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
JSF should not promote anyone ...

Let the skates speak for themselves.

The JSF has really done an amazing job for all of its top-tier skaters. They all have great coaches, and get great placements at events. Let the chips fall regarding to the scores.

I kind of don't understand whether some of the entries here are suggesting that JSF should be lobbying for preferencial judging, but I think if we each stop and think about it, none of us want that. If anyone who watches this sport closely wants to know what turns non-skating fans off from ever looking at this sport, it is a sense some of the results are fixed and not based on merit. For the sport to grow, it still has clean up its image.

The scoring system now is more transparent than it has ever been. Rarely, are scores super wonky (Asada's fs at NHK did seem kind of strange though).

In the men's skating, I think that the scores have been accurate enough to be considered ethical. The more and more that I review Hanyu's fs at NHK, I realize what an amazing skate it was. The problems he had, the other six and a half billion people on the planet should be so lucky. And his short skate, I don't think, was over-scored. (It is perhaps the first year that a short skate has been so beautifully skated to be worth watching and re-watching over and over.)

Generally, though, I see Hanyu getting better and better, going from amazing to better than amazing. Forget the JSF, I wish, with out hockey strike in Toronto, the press here in my own country would be giving more ink to figure skating and maybe let it drop in a few articles that this amazing talent is training here. It gives a good reference to Chan (for a rivallry) and perhaps they could help each other (Chan especially seems invisible) in the PR department in Toronto and Canada to spark an interest in the sport again. (And this would be good for Japan as well.) Hanyu has a wonderful charisma that could, I think, carry the sport well beyond the borders of Japan. Perhaps this is a dream that never can come true, but I sure wish that the people who handle skating promotion in Canada would try a little harder or be a bit smarter about it.

Regarding Takahashi, I question whether he is even second best of the Japanese men right now. The talent pool of Japanese men is sooooooo deep. Is it so far-fetched to say that of the top eight male skaters of the world, six of them are Japanese? Arguably no, but arguably yes. I don't think the JSF's problem is anywhere near figuring out who their top male skater is, but rather how to give international skating space and exposure to all of their great male skaters. Regarding who gets the highest mark though on any given day, just let the scores be ethically and impartially applied. Everyone wins then.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Well, is Hanyu in the next 15 months going to win a WC? An Olympic bronze (Dai arguably would have been silver-but the great Evgeny came ou of retirement-you decide if he was overscored in his freeskate under CoP.) Dai and Chan now skate with speed, attack, good choreography. These two are the class of the field. If Javi goes clean, he is far more the complete skater than Hanyu, who is often out of ceontrol. He wins, as did Pat before and now by getting a big lead in SP. If Javier gets his quads consistent, he's as good as anyone-total package skater. World's I hope will not go the way of rep judging.

I said Hanyu would eclipse Dai, but I thought internationally. And hopefully not before Sochi. I thought JSF had more loyalty-I think I am wrong.

As for Kozuka, not so exciding, but truly a skater's skater. He needs better programs, but his SS are superior to Hanyu. Machida is without a stle yet or any polis. 4th Japanese.

Dai has what Hanyu will need 4 years to develop-not 1 year. It is clear he is fighting for his spot. Dai makes masterpeices, quad or not. Skating is no longer about an unfinished pup like Hanyu bombing his FS with sloppy skating. Watch it, then Dai or Chan. He is still bronze at best to these two. I hope JSF realizes Dai goes to Sochi with huge experience. Hanyu, will be a new buck. It's hugely intimidating-Orser needs two years at least to develop Hanyu as a reliable freeskater. Hi LP is unintelligible-what is the cross about or ruffles? 2018, barring injury, he could be among he best ever, but he isn't there yet, but the scores say he is. Judging as NHK was a real farce anyway. Hanyu might as well not have music-there is no artistry yet.

JSF is desperate to get gold for mens in Sochi-I expect to see hanyuflation to build him up. Look at what they did to poor Akiko, who smiles all through. Mao would not have, nor should she. Dai should still be killing the other Japanes on PCS.

Poor Akiko and Mirai were robbed.
 
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NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
On average, Hanyu gains 20 points more from the quads and 3A's than Takahashi. That's too much to catch up even for a "complete skater" like Takahashi. Hanyu's chance of overcoming stamina problems is better than Takahashi's struggles on "quads". Even his 3A is getting less and less consistent.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I think if the JSF is smart they will promote both skaters. Dai as the elder statesman and Hanyu as the future. The Japanese press would have a field day with this type of scenario. Don't forget Dai is a superstar in Japan and puts people in seats not only in shows but also competitions. I am pretty sure that Dai and Hanyu will be on the Olympic team (barring injuries) and the JSF will probably give Dai the honor of Captain for Team Japan, a role I think he deserves.

I do not think either Dai (I will be rooting for him though) or Hanyu will get Gold at Sochi so it really does not matter to me who gets promoted by JSF. I will just enjoy the skating!

Well that is my 2 cents.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Takahashi is a great performer, but technically he is not on the same level as Hanyu. Nearly all Dai's quads are double-footed and some are UR. His 3A is not huge and easy like Hanyu's.

Performance-wise, Takahashi has it all over Hanyu and that equates to much higher PCS scores for the present.
 

kimganos

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
JSF should not promote anyone ... QUOTE]

Let the skates speak for themselves.

The JSF has really done an amazing job for all of its top-tier skaters. They all have great coaches, and get great placements at events. Let the chips fall regarding to the scores.

I kind of don't understand whether some of the entries here are suggesting that JSF should be lobbying for preferencial judging, but I think if we each stop and think about it, none of us want that. If anyone who watches this sport closely wants to know what turns non-skating fans off from ever looking at this sport, it is a sense some of the results are fixed and not based on merit. For the sport to grow, it still has clean up its image.

The scoring system now is more transparent than it has ever been. Rarely, are scores super wonky (Asada's fs at NHK did seem kind of strange though).

In the men's skating, I think that the scores have been accurate enough to be considered ethical. The more and more that I review Hanyu's fs at NHK, I realize what an amazing skate it was. The problems he had, the other six and a half billion people on the planet should be so lucky. And his short skate, I don't think, was over-scored. (It is perhaps the first year that a short skate has been so beautifully skated to be worth watching and re-watching over and over.)

Generally, though, I see Hanyu getting better and better, going from amazing to better than amazing. Forget the JSF, I wish, with out hockey strike in Toronto, the press here in my own country would be giving more ink to figure skating and maybe let it drop in a few articles that this amazing talent is training here. It gives a good reference to Chan (for a rivallry) and perhaps they could help each other (Chan especially seems invisible) in the PR department in Toronto and Canada to spark an interest in the sport again. (And this would be good for Japan as well.) Hanyu has a wonderful charisma that could, I think, carry the sport well beyond the borders of Japan. Perhaps this is a dream that never can come true, but I sure wish that the people who handle skating promotion in Canada would try a little harder or be a bit smarter about it.

Regarding Takahashi, I question whether he is even second best of the Japanese men right now. The talent pool of Japanese men is sooooooo deep. Is it so far-fetched to say that of the top eight male skaters of the world, six of them are Japanese? Arguably no, but arguably yes. I don't think the JSF's problem is anywhere near figuring out who their top male skater is, but rather how to give international skating space and exposure to all of their great male skaters. Regarding who gets the highest mark though on any given day, just let the scores be ethically and impartially applied. Everyone wins then.

:thumbsup:
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I've just watched men from NHK. My thought is that Dai is absolutely superior to Yuzuru in terms of skating skills and performance skills. Dai's SP even with the mistakes was fabulous.

It's not true what some people say that judges have already chosen Yuzuru even above Chan. Hanyu broke Chan's and Takahashi's records in SP only because of new rule with bonus in the second half. Had Chan's record SP from 2011 Worlds or Takahashi's SP from WTT benefited from that rule Hanyu wouldn't have broken the record.

Besides, if Dai hadn't made mistakes in SP he would've scored the same as Hanyu or even higher because of his PCS advantage.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Bartek said:
Besides, if Dai hadn't made mistakes in SP he would've scored the same as Hanyu or even higher because of his PCS advantage.

I love Daisuke, but I have to disagree here. Hanyu is already getting huge PCS in the SP, easily 40+. Takahashi wouldn't even be scored that much higher, maybe he might have 2 points ahead of Hanyu (and I'd think not even that). But even if, Hanyu wins the TES. Takahashi wins on steps, Hanyu maybe slighty on spins - but mainly, Hanyu wins on the jumps. 3A in the second half + massive GOE. I'm not seeing Daisuke getting the +2's and +3's on his 4T that Hanyu can get.

And the scary thing is Yuzuru broke this record twice in two competitions. How often are Patrick and Daisuke pulling their top-notch SPs?
 

cleoc

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Honestly i envy Japan fans - they have such amazing skaters now. Not only Takahashi and Hanyu and Kozuka, but also Machida, Mura, Oda. i think Japan must have 5 competitiors at WCh :biggrin:
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Honestly i envy Japan fans - they have such amazing skaters now. Not only Takahashi and Hanyu and Kozuka, but also Machida, Mura, Oda. i think Japan must have 5 competitiors at WCh :biggrin:

It's very nice of you, cleoc, saying so. :)
Having three top skaters would be great probably. To be honest, however, having too many top skaters in one country may not be that envious thing I would say. Just thinking about the Nats next month, my heart skips beats and my stomach aches...:slink:
 

Butterscotch17

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Having three top skaters would be great probably. To be honest, however, having too many top skaters in one country may not be that envious thing I would say. Just thinking about the Nats next month, my heart skips beats and my stomach aches...:slink:

I'm not even Japanese, and I am very nervous/excited for the Japan Nationals. Some of my favorite skaters are from Japan and it will be interesting and nerve-wracking to see how it all goes down.

Now, as for Daisuke and Yuzuru, I wish the JSF didn't have to promote anyone. That seems unfair but I do realize it goes with the territory in figure skating. I will just be hoping that they will both get scores that accurately reflect how they skate - no one "held up" or "held down" by PCS or GOE. However, if the JSF does "promote" Yuzuru more, I don't think that it will hurt Dai too much. Going into the 2011 season, I think that it is fair to say that the JSF was considering Takahiko their number one guy, and were almost given up on Dai, but that did not stop Dai from having a stellar season.

I am a die-hard Daisuke fan, and it is my dream that he will win the Olympic gold medal in Sochi. Nothing would make me happier than that. However, I have to say that I think Yuzuru has a better chance at winning the OGM than Dai does. I mean, obviously Yuzu needs to improve some, because falling apart in the second half a free skates won't cut it, but I think he might improve that in a year. What he won't improve in just one year will be his skating skills and PCS, but I don't know that it will matter. Dai has the edge on Yuzuru in PCS as of now, but Yuzu is not too much farther behind him. Daisuke is not as good technically as Yuzuru and Chan are, and though his jumps are good and he can land them when he's on, I can't deny that Dai will be behind them in TES. Dai will have a lead on Yuzuru on PCS (not on Chan, probably), but that advantage in PCS will not be enough to make up the lead Yuzu will likely have over him in TES, in my opinion.

As much as I truly wish that Dai will win (at least a medal, if not gold), my gut feeling is that the Olympic podium will be Chan, Plushenko (who is a wild card right now), and Yuzuru - those three in any order, I'm not going to try to predict that right now. Though I hope it will not be true, I think that Daisuke might finish fourth. No way am I counting him out though - he would have to have the skate of his life and hit all of his jumps including his two quads perfectly, plus sell the program like only he can, in order for him to do it, but it could happen. He does struggle technically sometimes, but I truly believe that if Daisuke were to nail every one of his jumps, he is the best in the world.

So far it is Yuzuru-1, Daisuke-0. It will be interesting to see how things stand after the GPF and Nats.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm not even Japanese, and I am very nervous/excited for the Japan Nationals. Some of my favorite skaters are from Japan and it will be interesting and nerve-wracking to see how it all goes down.

Me too! It's crazy to think 2 of the top 9 finishers in this season's GP aren't even going to make it out of their Nationals.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Who knows, it's completely possible...


sure is toni, but fact is Dai has already done it. You can bet on this horse to show at big events. Yuzu might melt down, He's up against great skaters with far more big comps under the belt.

I think his stamina issues are exacerbated by asthma, nerves and being too thin. He looks like he could use an expert nutritionist who work with top athletes.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think his stamina issues are exacerbated by asthma, nerves and being too thin. He looks like he could use an expert nutritionist who work with top athletes.

Adding weight may or may not help, as it can make the jumps harder to rotate. But I do agree he looks very thin and could use a stronger core to improve his line. COP helps him because if he can at least hit his elements in the first half of the LP and gain points, mistakes later won't hurt him as much as they would under 6.0.
 

Lunna

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
It's very nice of you, cleoc, saying so. :)
Having three top skaters would be great probably. To be honest, however, having too many top skaters in one country may not be that envious thing I would say. Just thinking about the Nats next month, my heart skips beats and my stomach aches...:slink:
Is there a rule that medalist of GPF (or maybe japanese skater that scores more then others) automatically gets a place in the world team? *I read about it on another forum but maybe you can clear that up?*
I wish that JSF shouldn't be promoting anybody. I'm rooting for Yuzuru but also like Dai (and Kozuka is good skater just lacks that extra something for me). So I wish both clean performances))
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Is there a rule that medalist of GPF (or maybe japanese skater that scores more then others) automatically gets a place in the world team?

That clause was abolished two years ago. I think they have realized it's useless when Ando and Oda qualified by the Final results in 2009. Originally it was designed to save the JSF's favorites (Asada and Takahashi) when they faltered at Japanese nationals.
 

Lunna

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
That clause was abolished two years ago. I think they have realized it's useless when Ando and Oda qualified by the Final results in 2009. Originally it was designed to save the JSF's favorites (Asada and Takahashi) when they faltered at Japanese nationals.
Thanks! Yeah, Japanese nationals would be quite nerve-racking.
 

Niki2012

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Hanyu has amazing jumping skills, but as a skater overall, he is still far behind Takahashi in SS, performance execution, music interpretation... most components of PCS. It is so obvious if you watch them on site. His biggest issue is that he cannot maintain the same level of performance through a program. His speed and ice coverage dropped drastically toward the end of the program, and his transitions got weaker. It is too dangerous to put all eggs in one basket. We do not know if he can keep same body shape until Sochi. He may gain weight or put more muscle in a couple of years. he may be able to have more stamina as a result, but weight gain may affect his jumps. We do not know. It is too early to dismiss anyone including Kozuka, Oda, and Machida. At all Japan nationals, we will see who is JFS's favorite.
 
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