Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 84

Thread: Should the JSF be promoting Hanyu before Takahashi?

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    2,769
    JSF should not promote anyone. I think Dai or Hanyu have excellent shots at OGM. THey are both great skaters with Hanyu improving. Hanyu's technical arsenal needs a bit more evidence. Because he is so new he doesn't have enough clean quads to say he is "consistent". He and Dai are getting there so while Javier and Hanyu have "more arsenal" they have yet to be really consistent and cleanly landing all the quads - this year could say a lot though. Chan will need to up the ante and ensuring the axel and quad triple toe is there and maybe look at one more quad but at the very least ensure he gets level 4's on all spins and footwork. Poor Verner and Brezina aren't looking so hot right now. Abbott is a bit of a question mark and a bigger question mark is OGM Evan. Forget Johnny Weir. I wonder what is running through Joubert's mind too?

  2. #17
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,021
    I had the impression at the time of Nice worlds. The international judges have pressed the JSF to accept Hanyu as #1 Japanese man. Hanyu's score of FS (with one fall) was higher than Takahashi's absolutely best effort. They could give Takahashi the gold medal with little difficulty. Just give Takahashi the PCS a little higher than Chan. That would be justifiable considering their performances. But they didn't do that because it would only strengthen Takahashi's position in Japan.

    At WTT, Takahashi has beaten Chan with super inflated scores. The JSF knew that if Hanyu was competing there, Takahashi's scores could be held down. Only when Takahashi is recognized as undeniable #1 Japanese man in the field (at home), he can be boosted limitlessly. The same thing occured at Japan Open.

    At NHK trophy, Takahashi's PCS of FS was only 83 points. He was given 91+ points at Japan Open for a performance of similar level (TES 81). It was only 0.4 points higher than COC. Takahashi was demoted to #2 position even before Hanyu's skate. Asada's PCS at NHK trophy was 3.5 points lower than JO regardless of the much worse performance. I think the JSF is already promoting Hanyu before Takahashi. Takahashi's TES potential is too low and his quads will never be reliable. There are only 15 months to Sochi olympics. They have no more time to waste.
    Last edited by NMURA; 11-26-2012 at 03:39 PM.

  3. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    They quite clearly are. Now the question I guess if it they are right too. Last season Takahashi with some of his best skating couldnt even beat flawed Chan in LPs, and Takahashi all those years has produced only 1 major gold for Japan, and is quite old and Hanyu young with still tons of years and improvement left, so I would say their choice to back Hanyu over Takahashi is correct.

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,576
    It's not really a stamina problem. Hanyu has asthma, and that affects his ability to deliver a FS as good as his SP. It's very noticeable that Hanyu's FS is great until he hits the last minute. From that point on, his breathing problems start to undermine his performance.

  5. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    I think he can overcome the program in time. Harding had severe asthma, inflamed it by smoking heavily at all competitions, and still finished her programs very strongly when she bothered to show up in shape and trained (which was about 25-30% of the time, and had nothing to do with asthma but her bad attitude and laziness).

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    280
    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    JSF should not promote anyone ...
    Let the skates speak for themselves.

    The JSF has really done an amazing job for all of its top-tier skaters. They all have great coaches, and get great placements at events. Let the chips fall regarding to the scores.

    I kind of don't understand whether some of the entries here are suggesting that JSF should be lobbying for preferencial judging, but I think if we each stop and think about it, none of us want that. If anyone who watches this sport closely wants to know what turns non-skating fans off from ever looking at this sport, it is a sense some of the results are fixed and not based on merit. For the sport to grow, it still has clean up its image.

    The scoring system now is more transparent than it has ever been. Rarely, are scores super wonky (Asada's fs at NHK did seem kind of strange though).

    In the men's skating, I think that the scores have been accurate enough to be considered ethical. The more and more that I review Hanyu's fs at NHK, I realize what an amazing skate it was. The problems he had, the other six and a half billion people on the planet should be so lucky. And his short skate, I don't think, was over-scored. (It is perhaps the first year that a short skate has been so beautifully skated to be worth watching and re-watching over and over.)

    Generally, though, I see Hanyu getting better and better, going from amazing to better than amazing. Forget the JSF, I wish, with out hockey strike in Toronto, the press here in my own country would be giving more ink to figure skating and maybe let it drop in a few articles that this amazing talent is training here. It gives a good reference to Chan (for a rivallry) and perhaps they could help each other (Chan especially seems invisible) in the PR department in Toronto and Canada to spark an interest in the sport again. (And this would be good for Japan as well.) Hanyu has a wonderful charisma that could, I think, carry the sport well beyond the borders of Japan. Perhaps this is a dream that never can come true, but I sure wish that the people who handle skating promotion in Canada would try a little harder or be a bit smarter about it.

    Regarding Takahashi, I question whether he is even second best of the Japanese men right now. The talent pool of Japanese men is sooooooo deep. Is it so far-fetched to say that of the top eight male skaters of the world, six of them are Japanese? Arguably no, but arguably yes. I don't think the JSF's problem is anywhere near figuring out who their top male skater is, but rather how to give international skating space and exposure to all of their great male skaters. Regarding who gets the highest mark though on any given day, just let the scores be ethically and impartially applied. Everyone wins then.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-28-2012 at 05:32 AM.

  7. #22
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Well, is Hanyu in the next 15 months going to win a WC? An Olympic bronze (Dai arguably would have been silver-but the great Evgeny came ou of retirement-you decide if he was overscored in his freeskate under CoP.) Dai and Chan now skate with speed, attack, good choreography. These two are the class of the field. If Javi goes clean, he is far more the complete skater than Hanyu, who is often out of ceontrol. He wins, as did Pat before and now by getting a big lead in SP. If Javier gets his quads consistent, he's as good as anyone-total package skater. World's I hope will not go the way of rep judging.

    I said Hanyu would eclipse Dai, but I thought internationally. And hopefully not before Sochi. I thought JSF had more loyalty-I think I am wrong.

    As for Kozuka, not so exciding, but truly a skater's skater. He needs better programs, but his SS are superior to Hanyu. Machida is without a stle yet or any polis. 4th Japanese.

    Dai has what Hanyu will need 4 years to develop-not 1 year. It is clear he is fighting for his spot. Dai makes masterpeices, quad or not. Skating is no longer about an unfinished pup like Hanyu bombing his FS with sloppy skating. Watch it, then Dai or Chan. He is still bronze at best to these two. I hope JSF realizes Dai goes to Sochi with huge experience. Hanyu, will be a new buck. It's hugely intimidating-Orser needs two years at least to develop Hanyu as a reliable freeskater. Hi LP is unintelligible-what is the cross about or ruffles? 2018, barring injury, he could be among he best ever, but he isn't there yet, but the scores say he is. Judging as NHK was a real farce anyway. Hanyu might as well not have music-there is no artistry yet.

    JSF is desperate to get gold for mens in Sochi-I expect to see hanyuflation to build him up. Look at what they did to poor Akiko, who smiles all through. Mao would not have, nor should she. Dai should still be killing the other Japanes on PCS.

    Poor Akiko and Mirai were robbed.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 11-27-2012 at 09:26 AM.

  8. #23
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,021
    On average, Hanyu gains 20 points more from the quads and 3A's than Takahashi. That's too much to catch up even for a "complete skater" like Takahashi. Hanyu's chance of overcoming stamina problems is better than Takahashi's struggles on "quads". Even his 3A is getting less and less consistent.

  9. #24
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,119
    I think if the JSF is smart they will promote both skaters. Dai as the elder statesman and Hanyu as the future. The Japanese press would have a field day with this type of scenario. Don't forget Dai is a superstar in Japan and puts people in seats not only in shows but also competitions. I am pretty sure that Dai and Hanyu will be on the Olympic team (barring injuries) and the JSF will probably give Dai the honor of Captain for Team Japan, a role I think he deserves.

    I do not think either Dai (I will be rooting for him though) or Hanyu will get Gold at Sochi so it really does not matter to me who gets promoted by JSF. I will just enjoy the skating!

    Well that is my 2 cents.

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,576
    Takahashi is a great performer, but technically he is not on the same level as Hanyu. Nearly all Dai's quads are double-footed and some are UR. His 3A is not huge and easy like Hanyu's.

    Performance-wise, Takahashi has it all over Hanyu and that equates to much higher PCS scores for the present.

  11. #26
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    96
    [QUOTE=phaeljones;683753]
    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    JSF should not promote anyone ... QUOTE]

    Let the skates speak for themselves.

    The JSF has really done an amazing job for all of its top-tier skaters. They all have great coaches, and get great placements at events. Let the chips fall regarding to the scores.

    I kind of don't understand whether some of the entries here are suggesting that JSF should be lobbying for preferencial judging, but I think if we each stop and think about it, none of us want that. If anyone who watches this sport closely wants to know what turns non-skating fans off from ever looking at this sport, it is a sense some of the results are fixed and not based on merit. For the sport to grow, it still has clean up its image.

    The scoring system now is more transparent than it has ever been. Rarely, are scores super wonky (Asada's fs at NHK did seem kind of strange though).

    In the men's skating, I think that the scores have been accurate enough to be considered ethical. The more and more that I review Hanyu's fs at NHK, I realize what an amazing skate it was. The problems he had, the other six and a half billion people on the planet should be so lucky. And his short skate, I don't think, was over-scored. (It is perhaps the first year that a short skate has been so beautifully skated to be worth watching and re-watching over and over.)

    Generally, though, I see Hanyu getting better and better, going from amazing to better than amazing. Forget the JSF, I wish, with out hockey strike in Toronto, the press here in my own country would be giving more ink to figure skating and maybe let it drop in a few articles that this amazing talent is training here. It gives a good reference to Chan (for a rivallry) and perhaps they could help each other (Chan especially seems invisible) in the PR department in Toronto and Canada to spark an interest in the sport again. (And this would be good for Japan as well.) Hanyu has a wonderful charisma that could, I think, carry the sport well beyond the borders of Japan. Perhaps this is a dream that never can come true, but I sure wish that the people who handle skating promotion in Canada would try a little harder or be a bit smarter about it.

    Regarding Takahashi, I question whether he is even second best of the Japanese men right now. The talent pool of Japanese men is sooooooo deep. Is it so far-fetched to say that of the top eight male skaters of the world, six of them are Japanese? Arguably no, but arguably yes. I don't think the JSF's problem is anywhere near figuring out who their top male skater is, but rather how to give international skating space and exposure to all of their great male skaters. Regarding who gets the highest mark though on any given day, just let the scores be ethically and impartially applied. Everyone wins then.

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    307
    I've just watched men from NHK. My thought is that Dai is absolutely superior to Yuzuru in terms of skating skills and performance skills. Dai's SP even with the mistakes was fabulous.

    It's not true what some people say that judges have already chosen Yuzuru even above Chan. Hanyu broke Chan's and Takahashi's records in SP only because of new rule with bonus in the second half. Had Chan's record SP from 2011 Worlds or Takahashi's SP from WTT benefited from that rule Hanyu wouldn't have broken the record.

    Besides, if Dai hadn't made mistakes in SP he would've scored the same as Hanyu or even higher because of his PCS advantage.

  13. #28
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,024
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek
    Besides, if Dai hadn't made mistakes in SP he would've scored the same as Hanyu or even higher because of his PCS advantage.
    I love Daisuke, but I have to disagree here. Hanyu is already getting huge PCS in the SP, easily 40+. Takahashi wouldn't even be scored that much higher, maybe he might have 2 points ahead of Hanyu (and I'd think not even that). But even if, Hanyu wins the TES. Takahashi wins on steps, Hanyu maybe slighty on spins - but mainly, Hanyu wins on the jumps. 3A in the second half + massive GOE. I'm not seeing Daisuke getting the +2's and +3's on his 4T that Hanyu can get.

    And the scary thing is Yuzuru broke this record twice in two competitions. How often are Patrick and Daisuke pulling their top-notch SPs?

  14. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    36
    Honestly i envy Japan fans - they have such amazing skaters now. Not only Takahashi and Hanyu and Kozuka, but also Machida, Mura, Oda. i think Japan must have 5 competitiors at WCh

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,793
    Quote Originally Posted by cleoc View Post
    Honestly i envy Japan fans - they have such amazing skaters now. Not only Takahashi and Hanyu and Kozuka, but also Machida, Mura, Oda. i think Japan must have 5 competitiors at WCh
    It's very nice of you, cleoc, saying so.
    Having three top skaters would be great probably. To be honest, however, having too many top skaters in one country may not be that envious thing I would say. Just thinking about the Nats next month, my heart skips beats and my stomach aches...

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •