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Thread: The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies

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    The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies

    In these months we are talking a lot about the decline of the Ladies' jumps content, and it's now clear that most of the skaters who win the international events (including worlds/4CC/euros) aren't able to land even one clean 3Lz, and, considering that ten years ago you couldn't place on a World podium without a 3Lz, it's quite interesting, so I did a summary of the Ladies who currently use more than one 3Lz in their programs:
    SENIOR LADIES WHO HAVE A TOTAL (SP+FS) OF THREE PLANNED 3Lzs:
    Akiko Suzuki
    Liza Tuktamysheva
    Julia Lipnitskaya
    Valentina Marchei
    Agnes Zawadzki
    Gracie Gold
    Elene Gedevanishvili
    Joshi Helgesson
    Lena Marrocco
    Polina Shelepen
    SENIOR LADIES WHO HAVE A TOTAL (SP+FS) OF TWO PLANNED 3Lzs:
    Elena Glebova
    Ying Zhang
    SENIOR LADIES WHO HAVE LANDED 3 CLEAN 3Lzs IN THIS PAST GP:
    Liza Tuktamysheva
    Valentina Marchei
    Lena Marrocco (she received -0.30 GOE for her second 3Lz in her TEB FS, but I considered it clean)
    SENIOR LADIES WHO HAVE LANDED 2 CLEAN 3Lzs IN THIS PAST GP:
    Agnes Zawadzki

    So, it's just 12 ladies! I think that, just in 2002, none of the Senior GP medalists had less than two 3Lzs planned; here, we have seven of the thirteen medalists with just one 3Lz planned and none of these seven, except Korpi, is able to land it withour receiving an "e" or "<" (please do not count Mao's and Wagner's "correct" edges at 2012 4CC, when the technical panel was really generous with them in this).
    Do you think that icreasing the 3Lz BV would be (making it for example 6.3) would be useful? Or making it a compulsory jump to attempt in the SP, like it has been last season in the Juniors (I believe that, for example, Lipnitskaya has been forced to improve its edge because she had to perform it in the SP, and now she isn't receiving the "e" anymore)?

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    It's hard with this judging system to make certain jumps "required" because there are so many places to make up the points (spins, footwork, PCS). I too find it a bit strange that you can lead after a short program without being able to do a 3Z or a 3F.

    Most ladies 15 or 20 years ago used the correct edge on the lutz take-off, and I think part of it is because they weren't doing them when they were 10 years old. They learned good technique on the doubles rather than just trying to learn the triples as quickly as possible. There is still a benefit to being able to do the lutz in the SP. A skater will start with a high BV with something like YuNa's 2010 layout (3Z3T & 3F).

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    Custom Title Rachmaninoff's Avatar
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    Does it matter? If there are other ways to rack up points (triple-triples, high level step sequences and spins, etc.) why is that a bad thing? Why should one jump be the primary means with which to rank skaters?

    Now, I'm not a skater, and I don't know whether the base value assigned to the triple lutz accurately reflects it's difficulty relative to other elements. If it doesn't, then of course it should be increased. But the fact that skaters used to have to do a particular jump to be in first place and now there are different ways of getting there isn't in itself a bad thing.

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    I believe that the first triple lutz done in competition by a lady was pretty recent in the scheme of things: Denise Biellmann in about 1981. It's the toughest ladies' jump unless you're one of about six people in the entire history of skating (Asada, Ito, Harding, Nakano, our Kimmie Meissner, and a Russian skater whose name eludes me) who have done a triple axel. So the 3Lz probably does deserve some special point value.

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    The point value for the triple lutz (or any other given jump) is going to be the same for men and for women. I don't foresee the ISU making two separate scales of values for the different sexes. This seems to be one element that, on average, is easier for men to do correctly than women. On the other hand, now that wrong-edge takeoffs on flips are also penalized, that problem tends to be more common with men.

    Denise Biellmann is credited with landing the first women's triple lutz in 1978. (Donald Jackson was the first man to land it in competition in 1962, but it wasn't until the 1970s that other men started including it as well.)

    I would say that the majority of American ladies 15 years ago did not consistently have correct takeoffs on their triple lutzes. Perhaps because of the rush to add the triple to the jump repertoire by early teens, among those who were on track for elite competition, and to add the double by juvenile level not only for those aiming at elite levels but also those who just wanted to be competitive at the regional and club level. And also most of these skaters had not trained school figures at the higher levels or at all.

    Not sure about the Japanese or Canadian women at the time -- among those who attempted it.

    European women were more likely to have the correct lutz takeoff if they included the jump at all, but some of them, below the top levels, had trouble rotating it completely and landing on one foot.

    We see fewer women trying triple lutzes these days because the penalties for incorrect takeoffs and for underrotation are much stricter than they were 15 years ago. Also, in short programs, it's clearer how much more credit skaters can get for executing a triple-triple combination not including a lutz than a triple-double with a lutz; when triple-triples first became allowed in the ladies' SP 16 years ago, it was not as clear and it was also easier for many to land a triple flutz than any triple-triple.

    20 years ago and earlier flutzes were less common because triple lutz attempts in general were much less common -- if you didn't really have it, you didn't put it in the program (e.g., Yuka Sato in 1992 and 93), and also because the skaters had trained school figures up to junior or senior level.

    The fact that double or triple lutz is required for juniors every third year means that anyone who competes junior in those years has a strong incentive to show the correct takeoff. But those who really struggle with that specific technique even on the double lutz might choose to move up to senior a year earlier than would otherwise fit their timetable (or stay novice a year longer) to avoid that disadvantage.

    It might make sense to have a required solo jump takeoff for seniors as well, but if so the rules would have to be changed to allow either a double or a triple, as with the juniors. Remember that the rules for seniors apply not only to the medal contenders but also to senior B event, national events that include skaters who will never qualify for international assignments, etc. It is not realistic to expect ALL ladies who compete at the senior level to attempt much less succeed at landing (rotated, correct takeoff edge) triple lutz, any more than it is realistic to expect every male competitor over 19 to land a triple axel or quad.

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    I thnk the issues with the triple lutz might be based on a few things. One, COP scrutinizes the jump far more than in the 6.0 system. COP makes a triple triple worth more than the triple lutz double toe/loop; a triple toe triple toe is often "easier" to do - same entrance and rhythm, flutzing/edge calls and underrotations are pivotal to the mark now and the ladies have so much more to be concerned about - spiral, spins, footwork, SS are worth a lot more now in the mark - and rarely can one be a master of all Still it is scarey to think medallists can get away with up to say a loop and no lutz or in some cases no real flip either.

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    I wouldn't focus on just the 3Lz. The number of ladies who do proper jumps of the full standard repertoire are very few these days. Even my beloved YuNa, who is capable of doing a lovely 3Loop (or at least was capable of it back in 2010 when there was a clip of her practicing it at the Cricket Club) omits that jump from her programs because...she can. There is not enough incentive to do all the triples under CoP. Nor are there enough incentives to encourage more difficult combinations compared to easier layouts consisting of the same jumps.

    Furthermore, it is a huge pet peeve of mine that edge calls are hardly penalized at all (see score sheets - the impact is very small), so senior ladies that already repeat the 3Flip and then do 3Flutzes in their LPs are breaking the Zayak rule in my book (and likewise for Lips.) Personally I want the wrong-edge triples to be brought down in value lower than their proper double-jump counterparts, and for there to be some kind of bonus for doing the full repertoire of takeoffs (e.g. a skater can be rewarded for repertoire-completion if she at least does a proper 2Lz if she can't do 3Lz without flutzing). Something like a 5% total score bonus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I believe that the first triple lutz done in competition by a lady was pretty recent in the scheme of things: Denise Biellmann in about 1981. It's the toughest ladies' jump unless you're one of about six people in the entire history of skating (Asada, Ito, Harding, Nakano, our Kimmie Meissner, and a Russian skater whose name eludes me) who have done a triple axel. So the 3Lz probably does deserve some special point value.
    Ludmila Nelidina

    Kimmie having that 3A ratified was a joke; it was a full 1/2 turn short. Much like Ando's ratified quad.

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    Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.

    And flutzing isn't a problem just for the American ladies.
    Japanese: Suzuki, Murakami, Asada, Imai, Hongo, Matsuda, Miyahara, Tomotaki, Shoji, Oba
    Russian: Makarova, Leonova, Lipnitskaia, Sotnikova, Shelepen, Gerasimova, Stavitskaia, Titushkina
    Canadian: Lacoste, Osmond, Daleman
    Other: Glebova, Li

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.

    And flutzing isn't a problem just for the American ladies.
    Japanese: Suzuki, Murakami, Asada, Imai, Hongo, Matsuda, Miyahara, Tomotaki, Shoji, Oba
    Russian: Makarova, Leonova, Lipnitskaia, Sotnikova, Shelepen, Gerasimova, Stavitskaia, Titushkina
    Canadian: Lacoste, Osmond, Daleman
    Other: Glebova, Li
    Lipnitskaia sometimes does flutz, sometimes lip, sometimes clean lutz and flip.
    Osmond had edge calls at both lutz and flip at the same program (Free Skating) Canadian Event of GP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    Lipnitskaia sometimes does flutz, sometimes lip, sometimes clean lutz and flip.
    Osmond had edge calls at both lutz and flip at the same program (Free Skating) Canadian Event of GP.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.

    And flutzing isn't a problem just for the American ladies.
    Japanese: Suzuki, Murakami, Asada, Imai, Hongo, Matsuda, Miyahara, Tomotaki, Shoji, Oba
    Russian: Makarova, Leonova, Lipnitskaia, Sotnikova, Shelepen, Gerasimova, Stavitskaia, Titushkina
    Canadian: Lacoste, Osmond, Daleman
    Other: Glebova, Li
    I think that this is another interesting topic, but it's not about the current level of Ladies skating: there are actually just a few female skaters in history who are (or have been) able to land both lutz and flip with clean L/RBO and L/RBI edges! (And two of them are Kostner and Yu-Na!)

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.
    You missed YuNa Kim on the lip list. She's had it called as well.

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    The only lady skaters in recent memory who do not lip/flutz is Kostner, Kim, Flatt and Ando.

    Kim and Ando fixed her lip, and it became unstable for both.
    Flatt fixed her flutz, and was never called again. She did clean flip and lutz in many programs.
    Kostner completely abandoned her lutz even though she can still do it in practice.
    Last edited by FlattFan; 11-26-2012 at 01:44 PM.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    The only lady skaters in recent memory who do not lip/flutz is Kostner, Kim, Flatt and Ando.

    Kim and Ando fixed her lip, and it became unstable for both.
    Flatt fixed her flutz, and was never called again. She did clean flip and lutz in many programs.
    Kostner completely abandoned her lutz even though she can still do it in practice.
    Also Joannie Rochette and Alissa Czisny, no? Or did they lip? I don't really know what a lip is.

    ETA: Oh wait, I do remember that Alissa often had the wrong edge on her triple flip. I thought Joannie was known for her very clean technique though.
    Last edited by Layfan; 11-26-2012 at 03:35 PM.

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    The lutz was never a stable, reliable jump for Kostner, so it is no surprise that she no longer does it. She used to use the entire length of the rink to set up the jump, and then she'd miss at least one out of three attempts.

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