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Thread: The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies

  1. #16
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I believe that the first triple lutz done in competition by a lady was pretty recent in the scheme of things: Denise Biellmann in about 1981. It's the toughest ladies' jump unless you're one of about six people in the entire history of skating (Asada, Ito, Harding, Nakano, our Kimmie Meissner, and a Russian skater whose name eludes me) who have done a triple axel. So the 3Lz probably does deserve some special point value.
    I don't think Kimmie's triple axel counts because it was not an international event.

  2. #17
    Custom Title ks777's Avatar
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    Didn't Suzuki get an edge call on both lutz and flip awhile ago? So she flutzed and lipped.. I don't know how that possible..

  3. #18
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Didn't Suzuki get an edge call on both lutz and flip awhile ago? So she flutzed and lipped.. I don't know how that possible..
    Pushing on the blade from one edge to the other is an easier way of generating momentum. A lot of skaters do it on both of these jumps (even if just minorly so), although on the flip when a skater slides from the outside edge to the inside edge it's usually not considered on "edge violation" in that case since the jump ended up on the inside edge after all. Caroline Zhang did get edge calls for her Flip, though, when she had the most drastic flip-flopping technique of this kind: going from inside edge to outside edge and then back to inside edge, during the duration of the takeoff.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Didn't Suzuki get an edge call on both lutz and flip awhile ago? So she flutzed and lipped.. I don't know how that possible..
    As a coach and former skater I think I may be able to help with this obviously its hard to fathom how or why a skater could both flutz and lip, but its all to do with a certain tecnique, you see it alot in younger girls. It is when the skaters will turn the three turn/mohawk into their flip and then wait for a moment before kind of kicking their free leg up and then picking it, the first skater of note I remember doing this was sasha cohen in the season after the 2002 olympics where she changed her flip tecnique, it is much more common now. The problem is that it makes the skater switch edges multiple times and makes their edge unstable, mirai, sasha and akiko all do/did this. Hope I was able to help

  5. #20
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    Skaters know cop now and know that the main goal is to fill their jumping slots with jumps they know they can do. Get full credit and goe and get good pcs. There is no Lady skater who has great technical ability with good pcs as well so now its all jump below lutz and sometimes even flip with good pcs. Kostner and Mao with their 65+ pcs are just unbeatable because they don't need the jumps and Mao is largely giving up on triples. I can imagine kostner will come back with no lutz or flip again too.

  6. #21
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Very helpful.

  7. #22
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    The lutz was never a stable, reliable jump for Kostner, so it is no surprise that she no longer does it. She used to use the entire length of the rink to set up the jump, and then she'd miss at least one out of three attempts.
    But her outside edge was one of the best in the world, even if she wasn't able to land it many times. I think she never received an "e" for a lutz (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure) but she got just one edge call for her 3F in her 2010 Euros FS, but it was really not a bad lip, and she never made mistakes in it after that competition so I think it was just an accident...

  8. #23
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    Kostner never flutzed, but her lutz was never reliable.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Kostner never flutzed, but her lutz was never reliable.
    Before last year not many of her jumps were reliable, so I hope she does try it agin (if she's even still competing, haven't heard much about her lately).

  10. #25
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Kostner never flutzed, but her lutz was never reliable.
    I know Caro fixed her lutz which was sometimes slightly a flutz in junior days(around 2002).
    I think that is why Caro's lutz is unstable and she has tried less though having a big & beautiful lutz.
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 11-28-2012 at 07:02 AM.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Slowdive's Avatar
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    If only everyone's 3Z could look like Tatiana Melinina's

  12. #27
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    But IIRC, Malinina had a leg wrap.

  13. #28
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    I have a different perspective on this issue . It is all about risk and reward and that one code of points system should not apply all, when variables between Men's and Women's skating component are entirely different therefore should NOT be treated the same in terms of numeric values. Which I think is the biggest weakness of COP, as it implies absolute values for things that are abstract and estimates.

    When ISU changed the rules after the Olympics by increased the value for Quad and reduced the penalty for UR/downgrades, reduce scale for GOE gain/loss, all the quads start to happen because the reward of the quad was worth it and mens start to train for it.

    When ISU changed the rules for increased the value for 3A for the ladies, they have kept the 3Lutz the same (3F reduced 5.5 > 5.3, 3Loop increased 5.0 > 5.1, 3Sal reduced 4.5 > 4.2, 3T increased 4.0> 4.1) but implemented the same reduced GOE scale of gains/loss same as the quads. It completely change the level playing fields. The trouble is NO ladies has a quad, no one has 3A except 1, and no one want to do the 3lutz since they are no longer as much reward for it unlike before. Weighing risks and reward, it now makes sense to favour of the easier 3T, 3Loop with good GOE. 3Sal and 3Flip were all reduced and make it less worth while just like the Lutz. This pretty much changed the equalibrium of the the optimal scoring strategy for the ladies, that made inclusion of higher risk of 3 Lutz no longer as attractive if this is all about scoring, which is exactly what COP is.

    The change of points for the ladies would be the equivalent of Men having certain quads reduced except quadlutz (because no one do them), also reduced the GOEs for all other quads, and increased the value of other triple jumps. If you do this to the mens, I bet you will see less quads over all next season, and more well executed 3:3s since people are going to train for it to maximize their scoring.

    This new equalibirium clearly favours those with already good built-in PCS, reduce the importance of TES base value and capped the points for quality can be gained/loss in GOEs. Liza, Julia, Zijun would be rewarded a lot better before the Olympics, with the more strict penalties for UR/Downgrades.

    With the COP, Skaters are going to train according to what they have but it is more about maximize their scores, NOT by whether something is more difficult therefore require more work. Thus make any changes in the value scale of COP interesting. I can't help but notice the trend where most of today's ladies are won more by PCS. In summary, 3luz have become a less valuable jump overall, its rewards are hardly offset by performing the easier triples with good GOEs, which for most people seems a more smarter solution to gather up points, and they will train accordingly.

    I do have a question. If Lutz is so important, and they want to encourage more ladies do them. How much base value should they raise to make it more attractive option given the depreciation of GOE scales?
    Last edited by os168; 11-28-2012 at 02:43 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    But IIRC, Malinina had a leg wrap.
    Doesn't look like it to me...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwVdheQlYq0

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I do have a question. If Lutz is so important, and they want to encourage more ladies do them. How much base value should they raise to make it more attractive option given the depreciation of GOE scales?
    That's a big "if" -- which is the premise behind this whole thread but not necessarily a valid one. Who says the lutz is so important that the rules should be designed to make it a deciding factor?

    And, given the fact that it's very difficult for most women to do triple lutzes with correct takeoffs, should a triple flutz (clear attempt to take off from the outside edge, and clear failure to do so) be worth more or less than an intended triple flip?

    Should the rules encourage or discourage skaters from attempting it at all if they can't do it right?

    If we want to reward correct lutzes and not incorrect attempts, maybe add "clear outside edge takeoff" to the bullet points for positive GOE for that specific jump. But only for women? (What about pairs doing side-by-side 2Lz or 3Lz, then?)

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