Didn't Suzuki get an edge call on both lutz and flip awhile ago? So she flutzed and lipped.. I don't know how that possible..
Skaters know cop now and know that the main goal is to fill their jumping slots with jumps they know they can do. Get full credit and goe and get good pcs. There is no Lady skater who has great technical ability with good pcs as well so now its all jump below lutz and sometimes even flip with good pcs. Kostner and Mao with their 65+ pcs are just unbeatable because they don't need the jumps and Mao is largely giving up on triples. I can imagine kostner will come back with no lutz or flip again too.
Kostner never flutzed, but her lutz was never reliable.
But IIRC, Malinina had a leg wrap.
I have a different perspective on this issue . It is all about risk and reward and that one code of points system should not apply all, when variables between Men's and Women's skating component are entirely different therefore should NOT be treated the same in terms of numeric values. Which I think is the biggest weakness of COP, as it implies absolute values for things that are abstract and estimates.
When ISU changed the rules after the Olympics by increased the value for Quad and reduced the penalty for UR/downgrades, reduce scale for GOE gain/loss, all the quads start to happen because the reward of the quad was worth it and mens start to train for it.
When ISU changed the rules for increased the value for 3A for the ladies, they have kept the 3Lutz the same (3F reduced 5.5 > 5.3, 3Loop increased 5.0 > 5.1, 3Sal reduced 4.5 > 4.2, 3T increased 4.0> 4.1) but implemented the same reduced GOE scale of gains/loss same as the quads. It completely change the level playing fields. The trouble is NO ladies has a quad, no one has 3A except 1, and no one want to do the 3lutz since they are no longer as much reward for it unlike before. Weighing risks and reward, it now makes sense to favour of the easier 3T, 3Loop with good GOE. 3Sal and 3Flip were all reduced and make it less worth while just like the Lutz. This pretty much changed the equalibrium of the the optimal scoring strategy for the ladies, that made inclusion of higher risk of 3 Lutz no longer as attractive if this is all about scoring, which is exactly what COP is.
The change of points for the ladies would be the equivalent of Men having certain quads reduced except quadlutz (because no one do them), also reduced the GOEs for all other quads, and increased the value of other triple jumps. If you do this to the mens, I bet you will see less quads over all next season, and more well executed 3:3s since people are going to train for it to maximize their scoring.
This new equalibirium clearly favours those with already good built-in PCS, reduce the importance of TES base value and capped the points for quality can be gained/loss in GOEs. Liza, Julia, Zijun would be rewarded a lot better before the Olympics, with the more strict penalties for UR/Downgrades.
With the COP, Skaters are going to train according to what they have but it is more about maximize their scores, NOT by whether something is more difficult therefore require more work. Thus make any changes in the value scale of COP interesting. I can't help but notice the trend where most of today's ladies are won more by PCS. In summary, 3luz have become a less valuable jump overall, its rewards are hardly offset by performing the easier triples with good GOEs, which for most people seems a more smarter solution to gather up points, and they will train accordingly.
I do have a question. If Lutz is so important, and they want to encourage more ladies do them. How much base value should they raise to make it more attractive option given the depreciation of GOE scales?
Last edited by OS; 11-28-2012 at 02:43 PM.
And, given the fact that it's very difficult for most women to do triple lutzes with correct takeoffs, should a triple flutz (clear attempt to take off from the outside edge, and clear failure to do so) be worth more or less than an intended triple flip?
Should the rules encourage or discourage skaters from attempting it at all if they can't do it right?
If we want to reward correct lutzes and not incorrect attempts, maybe add "clear outside edge takeoff" to the bullet points for positive GOE for that specific jump. But only for women? (What about pairs doing side-by-side 2Lz or 3Lz, then?)