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Thread: The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I believe that the first triple lutz done in competition by a lady was pretty recent in the scheme of things: Denise Biellmann in about 1981. It's the toughest ladies' jump unless you're one of about six people in the entire history of skating (Asada, Ito, Harding, Nakano, our Kimmie Meissner, and a Russian skater whose name eludes me) who have done a triple axel. So the 3Lz probably does deserve some special point value.
    At the age of 15, Biellmann was the first female skater to land the triple lutz in competition, which she performed for the first time at the 1978 European Championships.

  2. #47
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    I would like to see a new rule added where a skater who performs clean edge, fully rotated triples (or quads) of each type earns a set bonus point value to the technical score. In the case of the axel, men need to perform a triple axel and ladies can perform either the double or triple. For men's, I think it should be 4 additional points and 3 for ladies.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    I would like to see a new rule added where a skater who performs clean edge, fully rotated triples (or quads) of each type earns a set bonus point value to the technical score. In the case of the axel, men need to perform a triple axel and ladies can perform either the double or triple. For men's, I think it should be 4 additional points and 3 for ladies.
    This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.
    Cool, I didn't know that. I think it makes sense to reward skaters who have the technique required to do all the jumps properly and not let skater omit one or even two jump types that they're not comfortable doing.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.
    Do you know which countries use this rule?

    I had heard of Russia giving bonuses for seniors doing the hardest jumps...

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Do you know which countries use this rule?

    I had heard of Russia giving bonuses for seniors doing the hardest jumps...
    Yes, in Russia it's used in junior and novice (I think) AlexRus posted once an explanation of the bonus points that are given for the ladies who land 3-3, 3Lz and 3F in the same program or 3A, you can find it in the Russian Cup thread I think... In Italy Novice and Junior girls who land any 2A or triple receive 1 point-bonus for each of them, and the same in Canada, regardless of the GOE, just if they attempt a triple with clean rotation. I don't know about other countries...

  7. #52
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    USFS does not give bonuses. In the US, Junior and Novice ladies who make it to Nationals typically go for the high-value jumps and some have 3-3s.

  8. #53
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    OT: The men, during the GP series, had their share of edge calls. In the first two events of the series, the men received 14 edge calls. I believe the women had around 17. Sorry: was too lazy to go though all of the events. I guess if I were a skater I might see this differently, but I find myself perplexed that skaters have so much trouble using the correct edge. Perhaps, if figures were still a part of their training (though not competed), the situation might be different.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    USFS does not give bonuses. In the US, Junior and Novice ladies who make it to Nationals typically go for the high-value jumps and some have 3-3s.
    Most Novices don't have 3+3 at US Nationals, but the best Novices have a full set (or nearly so) of triples. In Juniors, this year it looks like a 3+3 is going to be required to get on the podium with Long and Edmunds going for 3+3 along with last year's Novice champ moving up and trying 3+3's in the summer...

  10. #55
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    OT: The men, during the GP series, had their share of edge calls. In the first two events of the series, the men received 14 edge calls. I believe the women had around 17. Sorry: was too lazy to go though all of the events. I guess if I were a skater I might see this differently, but I find myself perplexed that skaters have so much trouble using the correct edge. Perhaps, if figures were still a part of their training (though not competed), the situation might be different.
    There are many reasons to get an edge call. A lot of skaters have a borderline edge in practice (it's inconsistently there or it's a flat instead of the wrong edge) or have fixed it in practice but under the stress of competition, it becomes more pronounced because the timing changes a little bit from the adreneline of competition (which can't be truly simulated in practice). Many coaches in the US still have figures as part of skater training (especially when teaching some of the MIF patterns, it's easier to teach it as the figure first).

  11. #56
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    I so much prefer the ones who don't do three 3F in the program without being punished! I find it really wrong that they pretend to get the points for the 3Lz for one of them, who is more than a proper 3F. I find the wrong edge take off of the 3Lz should be punished more so they would loss points and better repeat a Loop instead. If they can do a proper 3Lz, ok, but not 3fluz and get points for 3Lz.
    than I think a reward of all 5 tripples with right edge take off should be considered.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.

    And flutzing isn't a problem just for the American ladies.
    Japanese: Suzuki, Murakami, Asada, Imai, Hongo, Matsuda, Miyahara, Tomotaki, Shoji, Oba
    Russian: Makarova, Leonova, Lipnitskaia, Sotnikova, Shelepen, Gerasimova, Stavitskaia, Titushkina
    Canadian: Lacoste, Osmond, Daleman
    Other: Glebova, Li
    Does Shelepen also flutz? I didn't know...

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I thnk the issues with the triple lutz might be based on a few things. One, COP scrutinizes the jump far more than in the 6.0 system. COP makes a triple triple worth more than the triple lutz double toe/loop; a triple toe triple toe is often "easier" to do - same entrance and rhythm, flutzing/edge calls and underrotations are pivotal to the mark now and the ladies have so much more to be concerned about - spiral, spins, footwork, SS are worth a lot more now in the mark - and rarely can one be a master of all Still it is scarey to think medallists can get away with up to say a loop and no lutz or in some cases no real flip either.
    Wow, really 3Ls-2t-2lo combo can be more difficult than 3t-3t?? That's something new that I found out today!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky85 View Post
    Wow, really 3Ls-2t-2lo combo can be more difficult than 3t-3t??
    I think it depends on the skater and which particular jumping skills come more easily to them.

  15. #60
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    The CoP has an opinion. 3Lz+2T+2Lo = 9.1; 3T+3T = 8.2. (But I think Skater Boy meant 3Lz + either 2T or 2Lo in a two-jump combo.)

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