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Thread: Mishin Slams Skating Judges

  1. #31
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    This always comes up, but if you read the definition of PCS very carefully, 'charisma' isn't listed as a criteria. I think PCS basically is just skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate. That's why Patrick Chan last season, without showing too much charisma, got great PCS scores in all of the categories. I would say the one element that seems to measure charima in PCS definition is 'projection', which is one bullet point out of six in P/E. So if charisma figures in PCS at all, it is minimal.
    What you think PCS are doesn't match what the ISU has up on its website*. If you look at them - not even all that carefully - you will also see that skating skills (and transitions) are not prerequisites for high marks on every other component. That fans seem to think otherwise is annoying; I'm tired of pointing out that there are five program components, and they do not all have the same criteria. That the judges don't seem to understand this is troubling. I used charisma along with performance ability in general, because the ability to reach out the the audience is an obvious part of P&E and a strength of Plushenko's. BTW, power/energy is listed under skating skills here, along with acceleration. I don't think every skater who scores highly in that component has great power and energy.

    The suggestion that Patrick Chan is superior at embodying "the music through the full use of your body as you skate" is one I disagree with. He's good enough, but there are skaters who are far better than him in this regard - including ones that people often complain are overscored. Having great skating skills and lots of transitions =/= having top notch-musical interpretation. Having fewer transitions or merely decent skating skills does not necessarily lead to weaker interpretation and performance. And this is exactly what Mishin was getting at: the marks are bunched together and used as placeholders, just like the second mark was under 6.0, only supposedly objective.

    * If ever there was any doubt that the IJS was developed primarily by Canadians, the reference to "cross-cuts" in the explanation of transitions certainly makes it clear.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-27-2012 at 06:10 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    What you think PCS are doesn't match what the ISU has up on its website*. If you look at them - not even all that carefully - you will also see that skating skills (and transitions) are not prerequisites for high marks on every other component. That fans seem to think otherwise is annoying; I'm tired of pointing out that there are five program components, and they do not all have the same criteria. That the judges don't seem to understand this is troubling. I used charisma along with performance ability in general, because the ability to reach out the the audience is an obvious part of P&E and a strength of Plushenko's. BTW, power/energy is listed under skating skills here, along with acceleration. I don't think every skater who scores highly in that component has great power and energy.

    * If ever there was any doubt that the IJS was developed primarily by Canadians, the reference to "cross-cuts" in the explanation of transitions certainly makes it clear.
    You misquoted me. I opined that PCS measures 'skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate.' So it's obviously not just about the use the blade, but how much you can control your blade in relation with the whole body as it co-ordinates itself to the music.

    I think Plushenko has this incredible way of accelerating into jumps that is impressive. PCS no longer allows you to win based on how powerful your stroking is. You have to show a whole package of skills to be certified a great skater. Is that why Mr. Mishin thinks PCS is unfair?
    Last edited by hurrah; 11-27-2012 at 06:24 AM.

  3. #33
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    You misquoted me. I opined that PCS measures 'skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate.' So it's obviously not just about the use the blade, but how much you can control your blade in relation with the whole body as it co-ordinates itself to the music.
    I'm sorry for misquoting you; I misunderstood your point. However, the bolded part strikes me as relevant only to the SS mark, so I still disagree with your interpretation of what PCS measures and should measure. Also, I don't think your understanding aligns with the official ISU guidelines on this.

    Just coordinating with the music is definitely not deserving of a high score on the IN mark.

  4. #34
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    What is the problem? In this thread- http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...es-Free-Skate- I read so many same posts..The problem is Mishin said this? In last year Tarasova also said same things, and she said will write her opinion to ISU. Mishin has risked that he will lose his popularity-he and his pupils are very popular- in Japan, but he was brave.
    ___

    I don't understand why do think the North-Am FS fans, that Plushy has bad SS...
    Jackie Wong mentioned in response to people questioning Evgeni's PCS that:
    "Plushenko had a great effortlessness in movement and a natural ability to generate great speed and power. Those aspects of his skating are sometimes underappreciated."

    http://www.youtube.com/user/lindafmb- I don't know who is this American lady, but he is not only a simply FS fan.

    In 2010:
    " I've seen literally thousands of hours of Plushenko skating over his career, and have done tons of biomechanical analyses of his and several skaters' jumps, spins, and footwork. Not only is he better than almost every other skater EVER in terms of his completeness in ALL aspects of skating, he's also eerily consistent."
    Last edited by plushyfan; 11-27-2012 at 07:44 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    This always comes up, but if you read the definition of PCS very carefully, 'charisma' isn't listed as a criteria. I think PCS basically is just skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate. That's why Patrick Chan last season, without showing too much charisma, got great PCS scores in all of the categories. I would say the one element that seems to measure charima in PCS definition is 'projection', which is one bullet point out of six in P/E. So if charisma figures in PCS at all, it is minimal.

    I think if you are a charismatic skater, you get a whole legion of fans like Dai does, but that's not why Dai gets the PCS that he does. At least, it shouldn't. No one should get more PCS for the amount of 'charisma' they display.

    Incidentally, while I think Plushenko has charisma, I don't think too much of his performance ability. His body language is too frenetic for me to see him as a great performer. I think his knees and back are too injured for him to shift his center of gravity with the kind of fluidity that is required to 'perform' well. I much prefer Gachinski (when he is on) as a performer. And Gachinski doesn't have much charisma.
    Really? If you have time start to look at this thread, please http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...only-Plushenko! I collected his best performances, details etc. since 1996. Or check it his wikipage.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko
    After I would like to read your opinion.

    This is the protocol of European Championships 2012, look at his PCS!
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec...2_protocol.pdf
    Last edited by plushyfan; 11-27-2012 at 07:37 AM.

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    Plushenko's SS are still good despite his age/injuries/surgeries. If other skaters had performing skills as bad as Plushenko' SS , we wouldn't see boring performances anymore.
    Maybe I misunderstand hurrah too, but as far as I get from his/her post she/he thinks he components are/should be all related somehow to the SS. I've read a lot of similar opinions on forums or youtube, which makes me think ISU rules are vague.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilywang View Post
    What is so ironic? Plushenko has never won a competition with multiple mistakes but held up only by PCS. I am in Plushy's camp, and I can say that with a proud face.
    Not with multiple mistakes, but overscoring on PCS is overscoring on PCS regardless of what happens with jumps. Even if you deny that he's ever been overscored, he has been around a long time in the skating world, so if "judges favor skaters who've been around a long time" that's not exactly going to hurt him. That's why it's ironic.

    I'm not denying the guy can perform, but he doesn't always bother to take advantage of this ability in competitive programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    So it should favour Plushenko and Suzuki. And not Hanyu and Fernandez.
    So you are saying it should favour Patrick Chan only. Unlike your idol, who (and actually anyone else) will never be shining with all regalia that Plu has by now, the Russian never won anything with polishing the ice with his butt multiple times (probably due to poor politiking skills of RusFed, unlike SC ), and therefore wasn't boo-ed as a champion. Plu never got any unfair advantage, similar to the ones your buddy normally gets, from PCS and the system in general leading to getting fake titles. Just less than 2 months ago he made mistakes at JO, still had a bigger BV than the quadless Buttle skating with safe-skating policy. But errors spoilt the general impression of Plu's prog, so his PCS went down immediately. Plus challenging tougher elements required a lot of nerves and it was one of the reason why he got lesser GOE (but still got!) on the executed elements. As the result he was put lower Buttle thanks to GOE and PCS and didn't get any advantage from his rank. So the fact that you dragged Plu has no merit and therefore count as lame trolling. If RusFed were as good at politiking and using the system as you suggest here, Plu wouldn't have ended up 4th at JO. So you guys are still the best at screwing everyone around.

    Mishin, TAT, Vasilljev, Gorshkov, Lakernik, others have been critisizing the system for the last two years if not longer, including how Chan was scored, not Asada only. I don't remember that anyone would make a soooooo big fuss of it. Here it happened just because rsport.ru put the English version on their site and gave some people the extra reason to bash Plu. He rules! He-he. In fact rsport.ru took translated-into-English quotes out of the context from the original Russian article where Mishin was asked about chances of Tuktamysheva at GPF. There it sounded quite logical that he mentioned that it's more difficult for younger skaters to get higher PCS because it's often based on "name." http://www.rsport.ru/figure_skating/...632822063.html He mentioned Asada because it was the freshest example but the whole critics of the system is not smth. that he never said before. He wasn't much in love in CoP before Vancouver too. Wasn't it when Yuna won Worlds-2009 with 3 triples over Flatt with 7, thanks to the lead in SP? Oh, wait, her coach was Orser! Lol. Or PC getting over 8 in PCS with four falls and over 9 with three doubles. It's not like NHK-2012 with Asada's win is a unique thing. It happened with others too, they were just bashed less due to lobbying, passports, etc. The whole system sucks. That is what Mishin was and is saying. And not him only.


    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I think PCS basically is just skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate. That's why Patrick Chan last season, without showing too much charisma, got great PCS scores in all of the categories.
    Then why on earth the Rules have all those categories if it's all about SS as you claim? No, dear, sport is recreation and entertainment, the key factor in the last is power, talent, attractiveness and charm, i.e. charisma, the things that can directly result in Performance&Interpretation and therefore impress the audience. The one that actullay pay for tickets, provide the venue and popularity, it leads to sponsors, TV contracts, etc. Some sofa specialists with popcorn are those who contribute the less in the system in fact. Btw, PC doesn't have the super-puper SS. Kozuka has not worse but he is not scored even nearly as PC, who is looking for the balance on each curve while Taka is flying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Kozuka has not worse but he is not scored even nearly as PC, who is looking for the balance on each curve while Taka is flying.
    This, Kozuka's PCS is very strange, especially if PCS is scored based on SS, as hurrah suggests.

  10. #40
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    So it should favour Plushenko and Suzuki. And not Hanyu and Fernandez.
    You recall, of course, that Suzuki was sidelined for a significant period of time while dealing with a severe eating disorder, and was never her federation's favorite afterward. It took her a long time to get herself noticed, nationally and internationally, and her reputation does not correspond to her age and experience. Plushenko has skated one full season out of the past seven, so what does that tell us? Because when it comes to PCS, it's kind of you snooze, you lose. Except maybe if you're Shen and Zhao coming back for the Olympic season.

    Fernandez is now in his seventh season skating senior events. His reputation has been built up gradually and his federation and coaches has played it smart. It helps that he's talented.

    I do agree that Plushenko has at times been overmarked. I don't agree that he has been as egregiously overmarked as some skaters, and he has not won anything he didn't deserve.

  11. #41
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    I said PCS looks at 'control your blade in relation with the whole body as it co-ordinates itself to the music'. By this, I mean that three discrete things are examined in PCS:

    1. skater's control of blade
    2. skater's whole body movement
    3. skater's co-ordination to the music

    So not just SS.

    While these aspects are marked discretely, it's ridiculous to assume that these discrete aspects are really discrete, because the skater demonstrates all these skills together. This statement does not mean that I think everything is about SS. It's about the blade, body and musical skills that the skater has to demonstrate together that PCS marks discretely. Is that clear now?
    Last edited by hurrah; 11-27-2012 at 10:06 AM.

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    This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

    Mishin does praise some other skaters during the interview. He is thoughtful and respectable.

    Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    What you think PCS are doesn't match what the ISU has up on its website*. If you look at them - not even all that carefully - you will also see that skating skills (and transitions) are not prerequisites for high marks on every other component.
    Not officially prerequisites. But there are references within some of the criteria for the other components that rely on skating skills and can be used by judges (for good or for ill) to justify tying the marks for those components to the level of skating skill.

    For Transitions it's more obvious anyway -- clearly the difficulty and the quality of the transitions rely on skill level.

    For Performance and Execution, Carriage, Clarity, and Variety and Contrast criteria either rely on, or in the case of Carriage may contribute to, the "Balance" criterion which is the very first thing mentioned under Skating Skills

    Carriage
    Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement
    from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the
    next....
    Clarity of movement
    Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise
    execution of any movement.
    Variety and contrast
    Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body
    parts as well as the use of contrast.
    Component training video on Balance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzcS_HlgLKQ

    Under Choreography, the Pattern and Ice Coverage criterion reflects skating skills (pattern is directly related to multidirectional skating; ice coverage is related to power and depth of edge).

    Under Interpretation, the first criterion is Effortless Movement in Time to the Music. Some judges might put the emphasis on the Effortless Movement part of that phrase, whereas others might focus more on the In Time to the Music part.

    At one extreme you might have some judges who are very technically oriented and aren't interested in, knowledgeable about, or sensitive to performing arts qualities at all. They would probably focus on the skating quality aspects of those later criteria in the areas I just noted and give little or even no attention to the more arts-oriented criteria.

    At the other extreme would be fans who love dance, music, theatre, circus, etc., and know and care zippo about skating technique, who would be just as entertained by actors or dancers or acrobats performing to the music on the ice, wearing blades, but mostly doing movements that could just as easily be done on the floor in special or ordinary shoes or in bare feet.

    Clearly almost all judges and almost all fans will fall somewhere between those two extremes. But which end they tend toward could be a matter of disagreement among judges as well as among fans.

    There's lots of room for improvement in how to define these components so that everyone can be closer to the same page in understanding what each of them is supposed to measure.
    Last edited by gkelly; 11-27-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  14. #44
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    There's lots of room for improvement in how to define these components so that everyone can be closer to the same page in understanding what each of them is supposed to measure.
    Thanks, gkelly! Good post as usual. I especially agree with the conclusion. I am aware that skating skills underlie some (thought not all) of the requirements for the other components, especially the transitions mark - I consider these two the more technical components, IN and P&E the more artistic components, and CH something of a mishmash. No wonder so many people find the system confusing... I mean, look at "effortless movement in time to the music" - what kind of movement? How do we know something is effortless? Or is it the appearance of something being effortless? It's all a bit too vague for me.

    I think post-Sochi someone within the ISU needs to take a good look at what they're trying to achieve with the PCS and how to explain the criteria to both judges and fans (not at the same level of detail, I guess). At the moment, I think the scoring is a bit too skewed toward the athletic side of skating, and I'd really like a more even distribution between the weight given to art and sport in program evaluation.

    ETA: I thought Alban Preaubert made a good point in this interview - it's in French, I'm posting a Google translated quote that I've tried to clean up a bit:
    I would advocate for a real change in the rating of art. Either stop separating it into 5 sub-criteria that are ultimately uniformly judged, or we keep this format, but this requires the judges to make real distinctions in these sub-criteria. If Jean Dujardin decided to get on the ice, he deserves close to on 10 interpretation and near zero for the skating skills (unless he has unsuspected qualities as a skater)! To date, there is not enough incentive for the judges to note such differences in the components and I do not find it logical.
    Alban was not a great skater, but he's a smart guy - did a Masters in management parallel to his skating career, and I think he wrote his thesis on how to make skating more visible in the media. I'd love to see more skaters, both retired and active, speak out about their views on the system and how it can be improved.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-27-2012 at 12:45 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsfan View Post
    This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

    Mishin does praise some other skaters during the interview. He is thoughtful and respectable.

    Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.

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