Mishin Slams Skating Judges | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Mishin Slams Skating Judges

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I said PCS looks at 'control your blade in relation with the whole body as it co-ordinates itself to the music'. By this, I mean that three discrete things are examined in PCS:

1. skater's control of blade
2. skater's whole body movement
3. skater's co-ordination to the music

So not just SS.

While these aspects are marked discretely, it's ridiculous to assume that these discrete aspects are really discrete, because the skater demonstrates all these skills together. This statement does not mean that I think everything is about SS. It's about the blade, body and musical skills that the skater has to demonstrate together that PCS marks discretely. Is that clear now?
 
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bsfan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

Mishin does praise some other skaters during the interview. He is thoughtful and respectable.

Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What you think PCS are doesn't match what the ISU has up on its website*. If you look at them - not even all that carefully - you will also see that skating skills (and transitions) are not prerequisites for high marks on every other component.

Not officially prerequisites. But there are references within some of the criteria for the other components that rely on skating skills and can be used by judges (for good or for ill) to justify tying the marks for those components to the level of skating skill.

For Transitions it's more obvious anyway -- clearly the difficulty and the quality of the transitions rely on skill level.

For Performance and Execution, Carriage, Clarity, and Variety and Contrast criteria either rely on, or in the case of Carriage may contribute to, the "Balance" criterion which is the very first thing mentioned under Skating Skills

Carriage
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement
from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the
next....
Clarity of movement
Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise
execution of any movement.
Variety and contrast
Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body
parts as well as the use of contrast.

Component training video on Balance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzcS_HlgLKQ

Under Choreography, the Pattern and Ice Coverage criterion reflects skating skills (pattern is directly related to multidirectional skating; ice coverage is related to power and depth of edge).

Under Interpretation, the first criterion is Effortless Movement in Time to the Music. Some judges might put the emphasis on the Effortless Movement part of that phrase, whereas others might focus more on the In Time to the Music part.

At one extreme you might have some judges who are very technically oriented and aren't interested in, knowledgeable about, or sensitive to performing arts qualities at all. They would probably focus on the skating quality aspects of those later criteria in the areas I just noted and give little or even no attention to the more arts-oriented criteria.

At the other extreme would be fans who love dance, music, theatre, circus, etc., and know and care zippo about skating technique, who would be just as entertained by actors or dancers or acrobats performing to the music on the ice, wearing blades, but mostly doing movements that could just as easily be done on the floor in special or ordinary shoes or in bare feet.

Clearly almost all judges and almost all fans will fall somewhere between those two extremes. But which end they tend toward could be a matter of disagreement among judges as well as among fans.

There's lots of room for improvement in how to define these components so that everyone can be closer to the same page in understanding what each of them is supposed to measure.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
There's lots of room for improvement in how to define these components so that everyone can be closer to the same page in understanding what each of them is supposed to measure.
Thanks, gkelly! Good post as usual. I especially agree with the conclusion. I am aware that skating skills underlie some (thought not all) of the requirements for the other components, especially the transitions mark - I consider these two the more technical components, IN and P&E the more artistic components, and CH something of a mishmash. No wonder so many people find the system confusing... I mean, look at "effortless movement in time to the music" - what kind of movement? How do we know something is effortless? Or is it the appearance of something being effortless? It's all a bit too vague for me.

I think post-Sochi someone within the ISU needs to take a good look at what they're trying to achieve with the PCS and how to explain the criteria to both judges and fans (not at the same level of detail, I guess). At the moment, I think the scoring is a bit too skewed toward the athletic side of skating, and I'd really like a more even distribution between the weight given to art and sport in program evaluation.

ETA: I thought Alban Preaubert made a good point in this interview - it's in French, I'm posting a Google translated quote that I've tried to clean up a bit:
I would advocate for a real change in the rating of art. Either stop separating it into 5 sub-criteria that are ultimately uniformly judged, or we keep this format, but this requires the judges to make real distinctions in these sub-criteria. If Jean Dujardin decided to get on the ice, he deserves close to on 10 interpretation and near zero for the skating skills (unless he has unsuspected qualities as a skater)! To date, there is not enough incentive for the judges to note such differences in the components and I do not find it logical.
Alban was not a great skater, but he's a smart guy - did a Masters in management parallel to his skating career, and I think he wrote his thesis on how to make skating more visible in the media. I'd love to see more skaters, both retired and active, speak out about their views on the system and how it can be improved.
 
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plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

Mishin does praise some other skaters during the interview. He is thoughtful and respectable.

Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.

:thumbsup:
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.

If so, you'd think he would show up at competitions where there are real challengers as opposed to doing just the Russian Nationals (sorry, but there is no one there at the moment) and the Europeans where there is like only 1 real competitor. Why avoiding the World Championship? Is it because he is afraid of competing against the Japanese and Chan?
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
If so, you'd think he would show up at competitions where there are real challengers as opposed to doing just the Russian Nationals (sorry, but there is no one there at the moment) and the Europeans where there is like only 1 real competitor. Why avoiding the World Championship? Is it because he is afraid of competing against the Japanese and Chan?
At Russian Nats: Artur Gachinski, world and European medalist; Sergei Voronov, 2012 GP medalist; Konstantin Menshov, who had a very creditable fall season.
At Euros: Javier Fernandez, GP finalist and Skate Canada winner; Brian Joubert, 4th at 2012 Worlds, with 16 ISU Championship medals to his credit (he was sick during the GP); Florent Amodio, 5th at Worlds, 2012 GP medalist, past European champion.

No, neither of these events is the strongest it's ever been, but there's no need to be insulting. Plushenko must do what he can to conserve his health, he's had numerous injuries and he can't skate a full season; he needs to focus on events that are close to home and offer a great chance for success (also ISU points and minimums, in the case of Euros). He'll face tougher competition than Patrick Chan will at his own Nats, that's for sure. Plushenko's Euros score last year was 3rd on the season's best list, and like it or not, Euros is still a prestige event. So absolutely, he remains a threat - he has Mishin jump technique and is a born competitor. You think the Russian Fed doesn't want Olympic medal no. 4 for him in Sochi, preferably of the golden variety?

That said, I'm not seeing any grand conspiracy behind the posts regarding the interview, as previous posters have suggested.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
If so, you'd think he would show up at competitions where there are real challengers as opposed to doing just the Russian Nationals (sorry, but there is no one there at the moment) and the Europeans where there is like only 1 real competitor. Why avoiding the World Championship? Is it because he is afraid of competing against the Japanese and Chan?

Buttercup is right. And Plushy said in his last interview:

- It turns out the issue with the World Championship 2013 is closed?
- No, it is not closed. I'm just used to focus on the the nearest goals. Now I think only about the Championship of Russia. After Sochi - I will start thinking about the European Championships. And after him - the World Championship. Everything should be decomposed by shelves.

The most important is his health. He is 30. His main goal is Sochi, in Sochi he will fight with the young changellers.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Plushenko is the only one in the top 20 at the Olympics who got 5.00 in pcs so judges can be really harsh with him in pcs.

That was not harsh for non-existing transitions, besides 7 judges gave him between 8.75-6.00.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That was not harsh for non-existing transitions, besides 7 judges gave him between 8.75-6.00.

Lots of skaters didn't have "any" transitions but plushenko got 5.00 which no one else in the top 20 got so he was judged harsher by judges not favored by them in Vancouver.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbbfflDE4PE Why did Plushenko miss the Vancouver gol medal?

A Japanese video, and his fans made a signature campaign and they sent it to the ISU. They wanted the revision of the final result. And many people wrote directly to the ISU! So I no wonder, that the ISU has changed the rules, the ISU was under pressure. I know you are an Evan fan, but this is true.
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
LOL so he is saying Plushenko has been gifted on PCS for many years due to repuation and experience essentialy. I agree, but does he even realize that is what he is essentialy saying. :laugh:

and Plushenko is a red rug for you and for that one who did the title, why not just "Mishin":laugh:

If you read what Mishin said, instead putting your words in his mouth, if you smart, you will understand him.
Mishin said before, Elisaveta should have won GP in France, because she lost in PCS, which is wrong according to him. I will trust him more than anyone else.
Usually he doesn’t say anything like that, probably this time judges “peed in a pickle” big time and then repeated at NHK .:biggrin:
He is not stupid to praise a win with 3 clean jumps.

It always amize me, how people jump, JUST IN CASE
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
If so, you'd think he would show up at competitions where there are real challengers as opposed to doing just the Russian Nationals (sorry, but there is no one there at the moment) and the Europeans where there is like only 1 real competitor. Why avoiding the World Championship? Is it because he is afraid of competing against the Japanese and Chan?
:unsure:

Plushenko just did JO.

This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

Mishin does praise some other skaters during the interview. He is thoughtful and respectable.

Plushenko is a "trouble" for some people because he is still not retired, still a big potential for the podium.

Exactly! and PC fans don't see his favorite doesn't have many transitions this year and has lots of two foot skating for rest, and so on.
May be Mishin was right? when he said quads take a lot of energy.

Well, Plush doesn't have the skating skills of let alone Patrick Chan, he can't even match most of his competitors like Daisuke, Kozuka, Jeremy Abbot, etc. etc so there is no way that he could ever have a chance at winning just based on PCS alone. What is being pointed out that he has gotten far higher PCS than he actually deserves in the past, mostly because of his legendary jumps.

for god sake please stop your propaganda, you can foolish yourself as much as you want:laugh:

and if Plushenko wins in Sochi 2012 with 3 clean jumps, please remember what you just said, and be really happy about it:p
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
If so, you'd think he would show up at competitions where there are real challengers as opposed to doing just the Russian Nationals (sorry, but there is no one there at the moment) and the Europeans where there is like only 1 real competitor. Why avoiding the World Championship? Is it because he is afraid of competing against the Japanese and Chan?

Umm, because he doesnt care facing them at this point? Plus the nationals have not happened yet and he cant talk around about going to wolrds when there is one single spot, theoritically speaking, it doesnt belong to him yet. Besides at his point of his career his target is not probably worlds but a good skate at Sochi. And i think his team is much more expert than any of us here on how to handle the situation. I believe every skater has his strategy, not only Plu.

That was not harsh for non-existing transitions, besides 7 judges gave him between 8.75-6.00.

Pcs= transitions? and yes he did a great one transition after his 3axel. :biggrin:
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Umm, because he doesnt care facing them at this point? Plus the nationals have not happened yet and he cant talk around about going to wolrds when there is one single spot, theoritically speaking, it doesnt belong to him yet. Besides at his point of his career his target is not probably worlds but a good skate at Sochi. And i think his team is much more expert than any of us here on how to handle the situation. I believe every skater has his strategy, not only Plu.

Using your argument, how can he then talk about a spot on the European Championship then given that the Russian Nationals have not happened yet, so he has not earned a spot for that either? Yes, there are multiple spots for that one but the principle is the same - he has not earned it yet. Frankly, that does nothing to preclude him from discussing it, just the same as his wish to be at the Sochi Olympics. It just sounds like excuses from the way you stated it.

From the competitions he chose to compete, Russian Nationals - despite the long list of pointless enumerations Buttercup added, the fact is that's competition where the top guy from Russia could manage at the 2012 Worlds was a miserable 17th place. I cannot recall that Russia or the former USSR has ever done so poorly in this discipline. And the top ranked Russian guy on the GP circuit this season is a 12th place, with 6 Japanese men placing ahead of him, from a guy who wasn't even on the Russian world team last year. No matter how one wants to sugar coat the state of Russian man skating, it's indisputably in bad shape for a country of such glorious history in this sport. The only way Plushenko could lose the Russian Nationals against such a field is if he accidentally knock himself out by smashing into a board and start rolling on the ice.

If he is healthy enough to do shows and Japan Open, then he can certainly spare the time for World Championship given that travel to Japan is about as far as traveling to London, Canada. Just don't blame people when he doesn't show up but his entourage keeps sending out bravado signals, leading people to speculate as to the real reasons of his no-show.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'm not exactly sure what the controversy is here. Mr. Mishin says that figure skating must cope with potential of nationalistic bias and reputation scoring.

Um...
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I'm not exactly sure what the controversy is here. Mr. Mishin says that figure skating must cope with potential of nationalistic bias and reputation scoring.

Um...

In other words, we must watch out for sunburn and protect ourselves with the appropriate sun screen because the sun's rays can be deceivingly powerful. Mishin's ability to state the obvious never ceases to amaze me...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
True, but no reason to pick on Mishin. He is only saying what everyone says when asked to comment on figure skating judging. Cinquanta himself would probably say the same.

I think it is the title of this thread that has channeled the discussion in a funny direction. Maybe it should have been, "Tuktamisheva's coach makes a few platitudes about judging."
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
If Plushenko decides not to go to Worlds, I believe they have a plan set, if I knew a better plan I would be an Oly champion myself, and if he chooses not to compete against Chan, Hanyu and Daisuke right now I d say its a wise choise, half the game in competitions is based on hype and impressions. Im interested if he competes against Fernandez now. For now it is all a moo point because March is far away and we dont know if he goes yet and is irelevant to the thread.
 

Evgenia

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
This thread starter posted the same thread, same title in Fsuniverse too. And Mishin is not unknown. Why call him "Plushenko's coach"? I can't help but thinking someone is trying to stir up dirt to aim at Plushenko. If the PCS stratergy works and Plushenko is dumped on PCS, great. If it doesn't work, use the same arguement to slam Plushenko's PCS.

Because R-sport or thread starter, all people who read here are more interested in Plushy than in Japanese star Mao Asada :popcorn:
 
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