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Thread: 2012 2013 JGPF Men's Short program Junior Grand Prix Final SP

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    You are not consistent with your claims. Now you call protocols "evidence" but before and ironically later in this very post I am quoting you claimed that protocols are incorrect. Which leads to the only logical conclusion possible- you are biased and are using protocols as "evidence" only when you find them convinient to back up your claims, and not when you do not. Lame, dear. Peope disagree with scores and judging all the time on forums, so leave you "protocols-evidence" argument somewhere there if you want to be taken seriously. The guy without clean 3A, which is the toughest element in junior SP, should not be in the lead if there is another guy who did the jump, as well as was quite close in other stuff, if Farris didn't get gift-levels from Tech squad. I didn't say Kovtun should be in the lead with 10 points. I said he should be with a small gap.
    My countrymen? Oh, yeah, the audience often support locals better than all the rest. Normal thing. But they normally didn't go dead silent unless the clear scam took place. Now feel free to start blahblah-ing how dumb and biased the audience in Iceberg is.
    Your argument boils down to "Maxim had a good 3A and Joshua did not, thus Maxim deserves to be in first place", which means you think skating should be about performing one element well. I mean, you call everything else "other stuff". Apparently, you ignore every jump element below the 3A, every spin element, and footwork sequence. The differences in how Farris performed them over Maxim added up.

    If anything, Maxim would be the one who received bonus PCS from the judges for having a home crowd advantage. His PCS scores for the SP in Croatia ranged from 5.71 to 6.29, and in Germany ranged from 5.96 to 6.29. Here, it was from 6.46-6.79. On the other hand, Joshua's PCS scores for the SP in Lake Placid were from 6.21-6.89 and Slovenia from 6.54-6.93. Here, it was from 6.71-6.93, hardly any change at all.

    While I disagree with the level 4 on the Farris' step sequence, I agree with all the other level calls in the protocols for both Farris and Maxim. If Maxim had a proper edge on the flip, better edges on his footwork sequence, or held his difficult spin positions longer, I can see Maxim edging out Farris by a small gap.
    Last edited by draqq; 12-06-2012 at 01:11 PM.

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    Maybe you're right. I think I just don't like that program from Jason is more it, I'm much more impressed by him in his more classical programs, which are usually his FSs. Hino does need to work on PCS but I think his technical content should help close the gap more than it has. If he skates a clean FS with two 3a and a quad, I hope he's on the podium, unless Kovtun and Farris hit those jumps as well and keep the mistakes to a minimum and Jason skates clean with two 3a. We'll see what happens though. I just feel like Hino has improved quite a bit, has good basics, and is a very strong and consistent enough jumper that his marks should have improved over the past season or so more than they have. But I guess it takes time, all these guys are young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Maybe you're right. I think I just don't like that program from Jason is more it, I'm much more impressed by him in his more classical programs, which are usually his FSs. Hino does need to work on PCS but I think his technical content should help close the gap more than it has. If he skates a clean FS with two 3a and a quad, I hope he's on the podium, unless Kovtun and Farris hit those jumps as well and keep the mistakes to a minimum and Jason skates clean with two 3a. We'll see what happens though. I just feel like Hino has improved quite a bit, has good basics, and is a very strong and consistent enough jumper that his marks should have improved over the past season or so more than they have. But I guess it takes time, all these guys are young.
    I assume you're talking to me. Yes Hino has great basics, but his CH/IN/PE leaves a lot to be desired. He doesn't really give much eye contact and is looking at the ground a lot it seems.

    I don't like Brown's SP as much as the one from last year, but I think it's good that he's trying different types of programs. He's still relatively young, so he has time to figure out what works and what types of music he does well with. And as always he's great about performing each one to his best ability

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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    Your argument boils down to "Maxim had a good 3A and Joshua did not, thus Maxim deserves to be in first place", which means you think skating should be about performing one element well. I mean, you call everything else "other stuff". Apparently, you ignore every jump element below the 3A, every spin element, and footwork sequence. The differences in how Farris performed them over Maxim added up.

    While I disagree with the level 4 on the Farris' step sequence, I agree with all the other level calls in the protocols for both Farris and Maxim. If Maxim had a proper edge on the flip, better edges on his footwork sequence, or held his difficult spin positions longer, I can see Maxim edging out Farris by a small gap.
    I think the thing is, both scores are quite good. If Kovtun was in the lead by say 2 points, that would mean a 76+ score for a SP with no quad, a 3lip with a turnout, and some missed levels on spins & footworks, all that considered, that's a huge score, especially for a junior event. It would mean a clean SP from Kovtun would be like 80 points or more, and while he's good, I don't know if he's that good yet. Kovtun is on an upward trajectory but doesn't have the reputation Farris has built up through making 3 JGPFS, winning 5 JGP golds, taking bronze at last year's JGPF, and silver (almost gold) at JW. He's been scoring 74-75 for SPs since last season, the judges are comfortable giving him those marks, if he hit the 3a he'd likely have gotten 76-78, which is appropriate given the improvements he made since last season. Kovtun's scores have already improved a ton in a short period of time, so given his limited international experience and rep, the scores make sense. If Kovtun can continue to deliver like he has this season, his scores will get better and he'll start to get benefit of the doubt should he step out of a 3a at an event, which like for Farris, is usually one of his strongest elements. Also, I feel like whoever among the two skates better tomorrow will win the event, I don't see Josh getting held up to gold if he doesn't skate particularly well, it didn't happen last season and that was with Han Yan being like 8 points back after the SP and Jason who was about 5 points back skating a program with no 3a. The best performance will win, I think.
    Last edited by silverlake22; 12-06-2012 at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I think the thing is, both scores are quite good. If Kovtun was in the lead by say 2 points, that would mean a 76+ score for a SP with no quad, a 3lip with a turnout, and some missed levels on spins & footworks, all that considered, that's a huge score, especially for a junior event. It would mean a clean SP from Kovtun would be like 80 points or more, and while he's good, I don't know if he's that good yet. Kovtun is on an upward trajectory but doesn't have the reputation Farris has built up through making 3 JGPFS, winning 5 JGP golds, taking bronze at last year's JGPF, and silver (almost gold) at JW. He's been scoring 74-75 for SPs since last season, the judges are comfortable giving him those marks, if he hit the 3a he'd likely have gotten 76-78, which is appropriate given the improvements he made since last season. Kovtun's scores have already improved a ton in a short period of time, so given his limited international experience and rep, the scores make sense. If Kovtun can continue to deliver like he has this season, his scores will get better and he'll start to get benefit of the doubt should he step out of a 3a at an event, which like for Farris, is usually one of his strongest elements.
    Agreed. Kovtun has more than a fair shot to outskate Farris in the free with his 4T and two 3A. May the best man win!

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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    Your argument boils down to "Maxim had a good 3A and Joshua did not, thus Maxim deserves to be in first place", which means you think skating should be about performing one element well. I mean, you call everything else "other stuff". Apparently, you ignore every jump element below the 3A, every spin element, and footwork sequence.
    It's not that scary for this sport as your position is- ISU is always right, a prog is some cocktail of elements without any meaning as a whole and screw the audience who just pay cash. Thanks to such "views" the popularity of this sport is where it is. Carry on. One jump you said? The quad controversy in Vancouver resulted in a fake Olympic champion and cost figure skating one more heavy damage, the second serious after SLC. Moreover, apparently you ignore the artistic demand of the prog as one whole unit and not just set of "other stuff". Farris PCS over Kovtun with some lousy balletic routine with no meaning and charisma is just a joke, so common nowdays in ISU's manipulation of PCS. And, which is actully more stupid and disgusting- you completely ignore the audience, just like ISU. We all know where such attidue brought them to. Well, obviously not all of us. I noticed how you escaped my argument about the dead-silent audience's reaction on Farris's score. You just said that I didn't type this argument, only about 3A. Oh well. Anything constructive?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-07-2012 at 05:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Oh, please, anyway can say "I am right", "I am the one who knows facts", etc. Come up with something constructive. And "pretty much the same" is not the same as "the same." That a point difference can make poeple won Olympics (Vancouver). Hey, your original argument was about better balletic presentation over classic male ones with posing and no transitions. Now you switched into talking about levels and conspiracy in Tech squad. Nice.
    The poster is providing you with different reason why Jason scored higher and provided reason and facts based on the IJS scoring system. If you don't want to discuss facts or use logic , what is the point of your argument or discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    It's not that scary for this sport as your position is- ISU is always right, a prog is some cocktail of elements without any meaning as a whole and screw the audience who just pay cash. Thanks to such "views" the popularity of this sport is where it is. Carry on. One jump you said? The quad controversy in Vancouver resulted in a fake Olympic champion and cost figure skating one more heavy damage, the second serious after SLC. Moreover, apparently you ignore the artistic demand of the prog as one whole unit and not just set of "other stuff". Farris PCS over Kovtun with some lousy balletic routine with no meaning and charisma is just a joke, so common nowdays in ISU's manipulation of PCS. And, which is actully more stupid and disgusting- you completely ignore the audience, just like ISU . We all know where such attidue brought them to. Well, obviously not all of us. I noticed how you escaped my argument about the dead-silent audience's reaction on Farris's score. You just said that I didn't type this argument, only about 3A. Oh well. Anything constructive?
    Well you completely ignore jason use of phrasing and carriage and blade work. Maybe if you took some balletic classes, and study classical dance you would have a better understanding of why the judges judge the way they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    The poster is providing you with different reason why Jason scored higher and provided reason and facts based on the IJS scoring system.
    But the illogical facts of IJS is what is being discussed in all threads regardless. The self-assumed monopoly of ISU sofa specialists on being the only ones who have facts and use logic is plain and quite old argument that obviously doesn't work (check the dead-silent audience).

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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    Well you completely ignore jason use of phrasing and carriage and blade work. Maybe if you took some balletic classes, and study classical dance you would have a better understanding of why the judges judge the way they do.
    Why are you people so always desperate in getting personal? Is it because you have no valid arguments? I believe it is. What I know for sure is the one who is indeed a specialist in his field and not just online troll, would never say to a fan the things that self-proclaimed sofa specialists like repeating. Are you saying that the audience in Iceberg should have taken ballet classes before attending the event, then they might haven't treated Farris's score they way they did? Well, actually ballet is quite a popular venue in Russia, more popular than fs. The fact that the audience didn't get "hooked" on Farris's ballet stuff says more than enough.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-07-2012 at 05:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    It's not that scary for this sport as your position is- ISU is always right, a prog is some cocktail of elements without any meaning as a whole and screw the audience who just pay cash. Thanks to such "views" the popularity of this sport is where it is. Carry on. One jump you said? The quad controversy in Vancouver resulted in a fake Olympic champion and cost figure skating one more heavy damage, the second serious after SLC. Moreover, apparently you ignore the artistic demand of the prog as one whole unit and not just set of "other stuff". Farris PCS over Kovtun with some lousy balletic routine with no meaning and charisma is just a joke, so common nowdays in ISU's manipulation of PCS. And, which is actully more stupid and disgusting- you completely ignore the audience, just like ISU . We all know where such attidue brought them to. Well, obviously not all of us. I noticed how you escaped my argument about the dead-silent audience's reaction on Farris's score. You just said that I didn't type this argument, only about 3A. Oh well. Anything constructive?
    I actually attack the ISU and judges on multiple occasions, the most recent of which is Mao's win over Suzuki at NHK. I introduced the concept of the new 10.0 system on the forum as an idea to make judging clearer to the audience and make it more approachable. I have a balanced approach on the CoP system, and I'll attack it or defend it depending on the issue at hand.

    It's fine if you think ballet is meaningless and has no charisma. I happen to think that ballet and contemporary dance has quiet power, and that Farris has the ability to stretch the musical phrasing of Yo-Yo Ma's cello piece with held, elongated body lines.

    The cheer of an audience should have little impact on judging. Otherwise, local skaters would pretty much always win, what with groupthink and favoritism. Also, any reaction to the marks are given after they've already been tabulated. It doesn't make much sense to give marks, observe the audience reaction, and then give marks again.

    However, I partially agree with you in that the current CoP system fails to consider the full impact of technical errors on a performance. I think judges should mark lower in PCS for missed jumps and for doubling intended triples more than they do now. How much so is up for debate. It doesn't change my view that Farris should still have edged Kovtun, but I think there's room for improvement in the current system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I think the thing is, both scores are quite good. If Kovtun was in the lead by say 2 points, that would mean a 76+ score for a SP with no quad, a 3lip with a turnout, and some missed levels on spins & footworks, all that considered, that's a huge score, especially for a junior event. It would mean a clean SP from Kovtun would be like 80 points or more, and while he's good, I don't know if he's that good yet. Kovtun is on an upward trajectory but doesn't have the reputation Farris has built up through making 3 JGPFS, winning 5 JGP golds, taking bronze at last year's JGPF, and silver (almost gold) at JW. He's been scoring 74-75 for SPs since last season, the judges are comfortable giving him those marks, if he hit the 3a he'd likely have gotten 76-78, which is appropriate given the improvements he made since last season. Kovtun's scores have already improved a ton in a short period of time, so given his limited international experience and rep, the scores make sense. If Kovtun can continue to deliver like he has this season, his scores will get better and he'll start to get benefit of the doubt should he step out of a 3a at an event, which like for Farris, is usually one of his strongest elements. Also, I feel like whoever among the two skates better tomorrow will win the event, I don't see Josh getting held up to gold if he doesn't skate particularly well, it didn't happen last season and that was with Han Yan being like 8 points back after the SP and Jason who was about 5 points back skating a program with no 3a. The best performance will win, I think.
    ^^ Absolutely, ITA, silverlake.

    I also agree with Mrs. P's assessments. And thanks draqq for your effort to post "constructive" arguments vs let's talk's rampant and rampaging ego.

    Kovtun is a very good skater who has improved a lot this season and it will be interesting to see him and all these young skaters rising to the fore in the senior ranks. Kovtun performed very well here under the pressure of performing in his home country. Farris and Brown were obviously a tad tight, but also performed very well overall. With maturity and experience, I'm sure Kovtun will balance his somewhat frenzied macho classic elegance with more unique style and grace, in which both Farris and Brown, IMO have somewhat of an edge over him at the moment. Still, fs is about politics as well as about balancing all aspects of the sport/ art (with emphasis on the technical aspects under IJS).
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 12-06-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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    thanks for the videos squinsgalore and Mao88!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Why are you people so always desperate in getting personal? Is it because you have no valid arguments? I believe it is. What I know for sure is the one who is indeed a specialist in his field and not just online troll, would never say to a fan the things that self-proclaimed sofa specialists like repeating. Are you saying that the audience in Iceberg should have taken ballet classes before attending the event, then they might haven't treated Farris's score they way they did? Well, actually ballet is quite a popular venue in Russia, more popular than fs. The fact that the audience didn't get "hooked" on Farris's ballet stuff says more than enough.
    Nothing personal, Just making a suggestion based on your previous statement. I have not said anything about the audience reaction. How people or an audience feel is very opinionated. For a sport to be judge objectively it has to be based what the athlete does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    I actually attack the ISU and judges on multiple occasions, the most recent of which is Mao's win over Suzuki at NHK. I introduced the concept of the new 10.0 system on the forum as an idea to make judging clearer to the audience and make it more approachable. I have a balanced approach on the CoP system, and I'll attack it or defend it depending on the issue at hand.
    Wow! You are quite a busy online body! Envy you. Glad to see that you have so much free time to develope a new judging system. But I think you shouldn't worry that much. The audience is quite knowledgable about how judging in the current fs works and the result you know- low popularity of the sport. If you indeed want to help this sport to recover, you'd better introduce the system how to make judges less politically engaged and biased, and more impartial and independent. Can you do that? Until then, either under the current system or your 10.0 stuff, they will find the way out and all your hard work will become waste of time and energy.
    It's fine if you think ballet is meaningless and has no charisma.
    Old tricks. Lovely to see how you think that people who read this forum are stupid if you put your words in someone else's mouth and think that no one will notice that. I assume it's some kind of defensive mechanism that you use when nothing else left. No one said that ballet is meaningless and has no charisma. I said Farris's balletic routine was like that. Are you saying that Farris=Ballet and therefore any critics of his sakting means critics of ballet as art? Brrr.. Oh, ...
    The cheer of an audience should have little impact on judging. Otherwise, local skaters would pretty much always win, what with groupthink and favoritism. Also, any reaction to the marks are given after they've already been tabulated. It doesn't make much sense to give marks, observe the audience reaction, and then give marks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    How people or an audience feel is very opinionated. For a sport to be judge objectively it has to be based what the athlete does.
    Then probably judges shouldn't give the score that leads to booing or dead silent reaction. Oh, wait, why should they even bother. The audience is just the ones who pay cash, who cares what they think. Btw, speaking about ballet. If a dancer were treated with dead-silent by the theater house, he would unlikely ever dance on that stage anymore. And those ballet specialists who would keep repeating how great the guy is, would end up being treated as fools who shoudn't be taken seriously. Power of the audience. In ballet, unfortunately, not in fs.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-07-2012 at 05:48 AM.

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