2012 GPF Ladies' Short Program

**draqq** · 12-07-2012, 08:27 AM

http://www.hahasport.com/v-4/8/120/v-492049.html

Currently re-airing the ladies SP, fyi.

**Bartek** · 12-07-2012, 08:49 AM

As much as I love Mao I must say that the scoring at this competition was really unfair. Her triple floop was CLEARLY underrotated and should've received <. Why didn't the technical specialist give her the < sign? On purpose or just overlooked it? Mao should be behind Ashley and Akiko.

**Nadia01** · 12-07-2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Buttercup

BTW, remind me - did Kim have a full jump repertoire? Because I seem to recall a certain triple missing... an easier one than the 3Lz, I believe.

Yes. Kim did 3Lo for 2 seasons IIRC (I think she had it in her Miss Saigon program jump layout, but can't remember for sure as it was my least favorite of hers), but dropped it due to injury. She still doesn't do it regularly b/c of the fear of aggravating the old injury (I believe it was to her hips/lower back).

Anyway, I think it would be great to see some difficult jump combinations (3/3) and triples from ladies, regardless of how you feel about CaroK, YunaK, or MichelleK. It's always good to see skaters push themselves.

**Olympia** · 12-07-2012, 08:52 AM

I'm glad Kiira was able to compete. I haven't had a chance to read through the thread, so I don't know how everyone did, just how everyone ended up in the rankings, but from the results I'm feeling bad about Liza in her home country. Good for Ashley, Mao, and Akiko, though!

**calstudent** · 12-07-2012, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Oh please. My emotions are not tied up in what people I don't know say about skaters I've never met.

Here is what Jammers wrote: No watering down her programs like Kostner did last year or Mao is doing now. Her programs, not her triple jumps. If Jammers wanted to make the point you're making, the post should have been phrased differently. Of course, Kostner did not initially turn to more conservative jump content by choice but because of an injury, and it seems some people insist on forgetting this. So there you go: I've provided a reminder, while also noting that in terms of non-jump content, they are by no means watered down. BTW, remind me - did Kim have a full jump repertoire? Because I seem to recall a certain triple missing... an easier one than the 3Lz, I believe.

Also, if Kostner and Kim have little to do with this thread, Kwan has even less. Not everything in skating needs to bee linked to Kwan and Kim.

ETA: I forgot to point out that Kostner landed a 3-3 in the SP at both Euros and Worlds last year.

Here's a little assignment for you: look up the phrase watered down in the dictionary and come back to me. Jammers did not say "bad", "mediocre" or "catastrophic." He/she simply said "watered-down." And you seem to concur because you yourself said "Kostner... turn to more conservative jump content." Whether it's due to an injury or not has no relevance as to the actual question of the program being "watered-down." And no I agree that her non-jump contents were not "watered-down" but as to her jump layout and thus holistically speaking, it doesn't take much to conclude that her programs had been watered-down compared to she did years ago.

Again, whether Kim does the triple loop or not is not relevant to the question of her programs being "watered-down." Kim does not have the triple loop but she has maintained programs of similar difficulty from one year to the next.

And here you go again with your tendency to rely on hyperbolic rhetoric. Just because someone mentioned Kim or Kostner or Kwan in passing does not mean that "everything in skating" was "bee linked to Kwan and Kim." -.- In fact, you have completely missed the point of the inclusion of these skaters if that's all you can see from the posts.

My response to your ETA: Yes but she did an easier triple toe-triple toe combination. She used to land triple flip-triple toe before in her competitive programs so it only substantiates the claim that her programs have been watered down.

**Buttercup** · 12-07-2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Nadia01

Yes. Kim did 3Lo for 2 seasons IIRC (I think she had it in her Miss Saigon program jump layout, but can't remember for sure as it was my least favorite of hers), but dropped it due to injury. She still doesn't do it regularly b/c of the fear of aggravating the old injury (I believe it was to her hips/lower back).

Anyway, I think it would be great to see some difficult jump combinations (3/3) and triples from ladies, regardless of how you feel about CaroK, YunaK, or MichelleK. It's always good to see skaters push themselves.

Thanks for the info! So they both had to give up on a jump due to injury... I didn't know that - I am less familiar with Kim's career so I wasn't aware of the timing or the reasons for the change.

I agree about it being nice to see more difficult jump content; OTOH, I worry for the skaters' health and there ability to remain in the sport for an extended period of time. Thinking of someone like Kostner, she's grown so much as a performer over the years, and it would be a shame to have her career shortened in pursuit of more difficult jumps. Or Korpi, who has finally made it to the GPF and has lovely programs. Or Akiko, whose breakthrough came at an age where skaters in the past might have been retired. I really like the current trend towards longer careers, and I think it helps the skaters develop as performers. So if doing a bit less on the jump front but with correct technique and care for one's health facilitates this, I'm fine with that.

calstudent, you're still confusing jump difficulty with overall program difficulty. It is possible for a skater to do something of perhaps lesser difficulty in terms of jumps but incorporate more challenging non-jump elements and other program content.

**jenaj** · 12-07-2012, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by katymay

Funny, I was just thinking that Ashley's program was very polished, and the choreography is wonderful. I think, perhaps she is a tiny bit heavy on her feet where the jumps come in (they are a bit low and labored), but obviously, this is a young woman who runs that program over and over and over again until each step is perfect. There is nothing sloppy about her skating. (IMO of course)

I thought Ashley's program was the most complete and yes, very polished. I like the ride-out on her jumps and her spins are very good. Everything flowed together so smoothly. Well done! But what happened to the triple lutz--not just for Ashley, but for all of the ladies?

**calstudent** · 12-07-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Buttercup

calstudent, you're still confusing jump difficulty with overall program difficulty. It is possible for a skater to do something of perhaps lesser difficulty in terms of jumps but incorporate more challenging non-jump elements and other program content.

In fact I didn't. Yes it is possible to perform a much more intricate and choreographically dazzling program that is more difficult than a program with more triple jumps but less transitions and etc. Kostner always had a wonderful quality to her skating and has maintained her spin, step, basic skating skills qualities throughout the years no more no less difficult but her jump layout has gotten easier.

Lol whatever, if you are an one-upper, the kind of person who-always-has-to-get-his-last-say, I couldn't care less. I'm done arguing over this. I think we both know - whether you'd like to admit it or not - that Carolina's programs, by the most strict and stringent definition of the phrase "watered-down", have been "watered-down"; PC "turn to more conservative jump layout."

**Jammers** · 12-07-2012, 09:22 AM

For me Ashley is solid and consistent but not memorable in any way to be honest. The great skaters take your breath away which Ashley more often then not doesn't. For me at least.

**Nadia01** · 12-07-2012, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Thanks for the info! So they both had to give up on a jump due to injury... I didn't know that - I am less familiar with Kim's career so I wasn't aware of the timing or the reasons for the change.

I agree about it being nice to see more difficult jump content; OTOH, I worry for the skaters' health and there ability to remain in the sport for an extended period of time. Thinking of someone like Kostner, she's grown so much as a performer over the years, and it would be a shame to have her career shortened in pursuit of more difficult jumps. Or Korpi, who has finally made it to the GPF and has lovely programs. Or Akiko, whose breakthrough came at an age where skaters in the past might have been retired. I really like the current trend towards longer careers, and I think it helps the skaters develop as performers. So if doing a bit less on the jump front but with correct technique and care for one's health facilitates this, I'm fine with that..

It was a great shame too as Yuna's 3Lo was stunningly beautiful w/ delayed rotations.

But I'm a bit torn about the longevity v. difficult jumps.

It is true that skaters who tend to perform difficult jumps w/ more rotations tend to get injured more. OTOH -- if we go for longevity and start to go for easier jumps & technical content so that skaters can become performers, figure skating cannot be considered a sport and ought to be banned from the Olympics. Without difficult technical content, FS is a fun performance event...or some kind of musical concert-esque event, but not a sport. Sports require athletes to do more -- to be faster, higher and stronger.

For example, I think it'll be very disappointing to see men take 15 seconds for the 100m sprint event to spare their joints (and thereby avoiding injuries & increasing their longevity) because it's no longer exciting. Of course, FS is not like running, but I still think that skaters need to advance the sport if they want to be competitive. If they want to go for just performance or longevity, they can retire from competitive skating and do ice shows, which is a perfectly valid option for skaters no longer interested in competing.

**Nadia01** · 12-07-2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by jenaj

I thought Ashley's program was the most complete and yes, very polished. I like the ride-out on her jumps and her spins are very good. Everything flowed together so smoothly. Well done! But what happened to the triple lutz--not just for Ashley, but for all of the ladies?

Maybe they decided that they don't need the jump to win so they all deleted it from their repertoire? Makes sense, esp. for those getting e on 3Lz.

**jenaj** · 12-07-2012, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nadia01

Maybe they decided that they don't need the jump to win so they all deleted it from their repertoire? Makes sense, esp. for those getting e on 3Lz.

Well, obviously. Maybe the 3-lutz should be worth more, to encourage more skaters to learn to do it.

**Nadia01** · 12-07-2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by jenaj

Well, obviously. Maybe the 3-lutz should be worth more, to encourage more skaters to learn to do it.

I actually think 3/3 should be worth more too.

Instead of the value being 1st jump + 2nd jump for 3/3, it should be (1st jump + 2nd jump) * 1.1 for 3/3 for ladies. Meaning, you get 10% bonus for the triple-triple combo. That will get more of them to do it if they want to edge out their competitors.