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Thread: 2012 GPF Free Dance FD

  1. #121
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    All the Canton teams had some sessions with Cirque back just after V&M and D&W moved to seniors, the second season they were in seniors I think. AFAIR, it was reported in IN.
    And Virtue/Moir briefly discuss their Cirque training in their book too, if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    It occurred to me earlier today that it is a bit strange/hypocritical/WEIRD that while LOTS of people talk freely about Tessa's weight, not one (myself included) has thought to say maybe Scott should bulk up a bit.

    Maybe Scott should bulk up a bit.
    If anyone has not seen this very interesting interview with V/M's trainer (in London) Maria Mountain, I highly recommend it. The video is 5:54 in length, and PJ Kwong recorded it over the summer.
    For one thing, Mountain is an immense pleasure to watch . She's full of energy and personality -- not to mention scientific knowledge and experience. (BTW, hockey players are the majority of her clients, from what I can tell.)
    I haven't gone back to view the video again, but among the points Mountain made is that Moir does bulk up during the off-season. Once the season starts, he maintains his strength but trims down a bit in order to enhance V/M's superb lines.
    As for Virtue, their goal is for her to have 100% of the muscle that she needs, but not an ounce more -- again partly for the sake of lines, and partly for Moir's sake during lifts.
    Virtue/Moir always show Mountain the specific lifts in their programs, and she customizes their workouts to target the appropriate muscles.
    ETA: V/M train with her twice a week in London. They return to Canton with her marching orders for their workouts there without her.
    The videos below have good footage of Virtue/Moir working out with Mountain.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    ... I don’t know how many people remember this article from a few years ago when Tanith talked about her own disordered eating. It’s a very worthy read…
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/sp...cers.html?_r=0
    Many thanks, Northern. I do remember that article and had intended to look for the link myself.
    I agree that the entire article is very worthwhile reading -- and definitely relevant to the discussion in this thread.
    I think the excerpts below (emphasis added) represent the gist:

    Linichuk took one look at the 5-foot-6, 105-pound Belbin and said, “You need to gain 10 pounds.” She said more muscle would help Belbin skate faster and more fluidly. ...

    Belbin began reading books about nutrition and eating lunch at the rink. She learned to eat foods that would best sustain an athlete’s body.
    She also began training harder off the ice, lifting weights, doing push-ups and participating in Karponosov’s boot camps, which involve hard-core skating drills to strengthen the legs.
    Karponosov’s skaters would often complain that his drills made their legs so muscular that they could no longer fit into their jeans.
    “I was always like, there will never be a day when I can’t fit into my jeans,” Belbin said. “But this past summer, I came to him and said my jeans are so tight. I never thought I’d see that change in my body. It really, really made a difference. It feels good, though.”

    Belbin began marveling at her new body. She had gained 10 pounds. Her waist size increased two inches because her core was so much stronger.

    Agosto could see a huge difference in Belbin’s skating. During lifts, she was no longer a sack of potatoes, holding on for dear life. She could hold her positions much better, and that made it easier for Agosto because she did not move around as much.
    Last edited by golden411; 12-10-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  2. #122
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    It's so amazing to read about the difference it makes to have someone who understands physiology designing the training programs. It's also amazing to realize the daily commitment it takes for skaters to maintain the precise and intense program day after day, year after year. When you hear this, it's mind boggling to realize that a top couple like Virtue/Moir or Davis/White remains at this level of commitment for two Olympic cycles.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    No.

    Your post and chuckm's post were different. My post was meant clarify what chuckm meant by "heavy". Since I found out from a later poster that you had made a comment earlier using "heavy" in a different context to describe her skating, I added an ETA simply because I felt that Dance Fanatic's last sentence very well could have been directed towards you; which then I could not use my explanation of muscle hypertrophy, now could I?
    Okay, I got it. You didn't mean anything bad. But it doesn't change the fact about some Voir fans having double standards. In the sentence "She is also heavier than many ice dancers" the poster is talking about Tessa's size and even using the same word- "heavy(heavier)". Yet I don't see any hysterics to his/her address with name-calling like "rude", "absurd", "harsh", "not cool", etc. So, the conclusion on hypocrisy of some Voir fans stands. I also noticed that no one of them came with an apology. Says a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    This is not the first time “let’s talk” and others have raised Tessa’s weight,
    And where exactly, dear scary one, my persona has raised Tessa's weight on this particular thread? If you and others have reading comprehension issues, they are your issues and not mine. Anyway, since I am already blamed for this act, it would be logical for me to actually commit such an act in order not to feel like that innocent who got found guilty. Now I am talking about Tessa's weight. This ice dance couple has this problem- they are both on the same size, which is not good for this fs segment. Could you please explain why it is so terribly sensitive to talk about size issue only in THIS particular team/skaters? Why others are being discussed left and right and no one gets mad? When Plu got fat, his fans were vocal on that, maybe because Plu himself kept repeating how much he was out of form and made a laugh of himself. In the current field Yuzu's size is the one being offen mentioned, like him being too skinny and thin. And no one gets mad. Oh, yeah, they are men. Tessa is a woman. Okay, when Mao lost much weight a couple of seasons back and became very weak, again, her fans were the first ones who got concerned and kept repeating that the issue does exist. Oh, I forgot, losing weight must be not such a terrible thing as putting it. Fine. Just right now on this very board Julia fans are writing that Liza put on weight and became slow. And, again, notice, no one gets mad. No one. Because they are reasonable enough to see that the problem exists and it's simply stupid to deny it. Then why do Voir fans get so sensitive I wonder. Tell me who your idol is ... or whatever is the reason... Basketball player must be tall and athletic. Top model must be tall and proper-looking. Sumo-wrestler must be awfully big and fat. They know that. In Pairs he is much taller and bigger than her and we all know why. Pretty much the same can be said about Ice Dancing, just the difference between partners is usually less than in Pairs but still there is. So, my dear Voir fans, you'd better stop embarassing yourselves with this ridiculous speaking as some moral authority on what people should say. Because they will keep raising the issue every time Scott won't be able to handle Tessa in lifs, for a start. If the issue exists, it's naive to keep pretending that it doesn't, to say the least.

  4. #124
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    Tessa looked heavier last year than this year, but yet, they won 4CCs and Worlds. Seems to me that Scott can handle Tessa's weight just fine. My guess is that the issue isn't weight, but rather that they have programs that take a full season to shine.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    Tessa looked heavier last year than this year, but yet, they won 4CCs and Worlds. Seems to me that Scott can handle Tessa's weight just fine. My guess is that the issue isn't weight, but rather that they have programs that take a full season to shine.
    Tessa is a gorgeous looking woman, taller than the average figure skater, and, as an elite athlete, probably has a body fat percentage of between 10-15% (women's average 20-25%). Tessa & Scott don't have much of a height difference which, IMO, makes them a very imposing appearance on the ice. Think Navka and Kostomorov who were very close in height. I like this look way better in ice dance than the big height difference; it gives a sensual appearance where the dancers are eye to eye; it can increase the tension and connection. On the other hand, lifts can be more challenging and different techniques need to be used.

  6. #126
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    Tessa looked heavier last year than this year, but yet, they won 4CCs and Worlds. Seems to me that Scott can handle Tessa's weight just fine. My guess is that the issue isn't weight, but rather that they have programs that take a full season to shine.
    true. i don't see any problem with Tessa at all...but they, like Tanith and Ben are more evenly matched in height and thus can't really pull of some of the lifts that a more pixie-like Meryl can. However, they can use these lines to their advantage, as they usually do. Russian ice dancers and Tanith and Ben did some amazing majestic, "wow" factor lifts that did not require fast, tight turns on the man's part (and might be more in the character of Carmen).

  7. #127
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    Hi all, maybe not the right place to post this, but had to say something - what a glorious, golden skate by Davis & White. IMHO, they blow V & M out of the water, no matter what size or weight any of them might be.

    Please move this to correct forum if I'm in the wrong place.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    true. i don't see any problem with Tessa at all...but they, like Tanith and Ben are more evenly matched in height and thus can't really pull of some of the lifts that a more pixie-like Meryl can. However, they can use these lines to their advantage, as they usually do. Russian ice dancers and Tanith and Ben did some amazing majestic, "wow" factor lifts that did not require fast, tight turns on the man's part (and might be more in the character of Carmen).
    I think one thing to remember is that V/M are trying a lot more new movements this year - certainly new lifts (with the exception of the second half of the combo lift), and not reusing their lifts means that they'll be slower to nail them. Given that they really do seem to try and create lifts and movements that work with the dance's aesthetics first before they see if they can actually do them well (the first curve lift in Funny Face, for example) means that they don't have as steep a learning curve. As a rule, they've always favoured intricate entries and exits (the entry to the rotational lift is just sick) too.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Okay, I got it. You didn't mean anything bad. But it doesn't change the fact about some Voir fans having double standards. In the sentence "She is also heavier than many ice dancers" the poster is talking about Tessa's size and even using the same word- "heavy(heavier)". Yet I don't see any hysterics to his/her address with name-calling like "rude", "absurd", "harsh", "not cool", etc. So, the conclusion on hypocrisy of some Voir fans stands. I also noticed that no one of them came with an apology. Says a lot.
    Let's recap what you had said:

    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Tessa is SOOOOO heavy.
    I don't think the way people responded to this post was unjustified.

    You don't honestly expect people to react positively to the way you said this.

    And note, it's not only Voir fans. Once you comment on any skater's weight, that opens up a can of worms. Athletes are under a lot of pressure to win. This is especially so in the case of figure skating where body image is everything.

    To my knowledge, two skaters (Tanith Belbin and Jenny Kirk, with Jenny in particular) have publicly spoken about their struggles with weight and eating disorders/disordered eating. So yes, many fans of many different skaters are sensitive to this kind of thing and rightfully so. I remember reading somewhere that skaters do sometimes read comments on a forum. And a nasty little dig at any part of their body image might trigger a decision to "fix" what was never wrong in the first place.

  10. #130
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    Moderator's post. The incessant bickering and ad hominem one-upsmanship on this thread has made it boring for other Golden Skate members.(Not to mention making more work for the moderators in writing warnings and infractions.) We are here to discuss figure skating, not to make witty insults against skaters or fellow posters.

  11. #131
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    All the Canton teams had some sessions with Cirque back just after V&M and D&W moved to seniors, the second season they were in seniors I think. AFAIR, it was reported in IN.
    In addition, I had a vague memory of seeing somewhere that Weaver/Poje also had received training from Cirque du Soleil.
    Finally found a reference to it in an old PJ Kwong blog post (from 2010, I think):

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcnative View Post
    V/M are great ice dancers/dancers.They have great line, presentation, skills, etc. Their dances this year are not doing it for me. I am biased, because I think they get overscored but I'm still scratching my head on both dances. The SD tries to combine modern dance with YP and it's ridiculous, or maybe I'm just not dance-cultured enough to be able to appreciate it. As I'm understanding Carmen, they are supposed to be presenting a sexy woman that rules men. But all I see is a pretty woman in a sexy dress with sexy makeup flailing around. If my understanding of what Carmen is supposed to be is correct, then their final pose is sums that up.

    i've been fans of D/W since Bollywood. They don't have "line", but they have the skills and just seem to be able to make their programs work for them. I recognize that they have recycled several "signature" moves and lifts, and they certainly haven't updated their expedition, but everything seemed to come together excellently with this skate. Kudos to them for taking what they have and making it work.
    And many of us scratch our heads about the scores that D/W get with their recycled, unoriginal programs that have clean technique but their attempts to tell a love story doesn't work IMO. I admire them & how hard working them are but I find it hard sometimes to see beyond the frantic skating & forced expressions on their faces. I disagree with posters about V/M lifts - they are always original, extremely difficult & thus, take much longer to master because they haven't been practising them for several seasons.

  13. #133
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Diva View Post
    And many of us scratch our heads about the scores that D/W get with their recycled, unoriginal programs that have clean technique but their attempts to tell a love story doesn't work IMO. I admire them & how hard working them are but I find it hard sometimes to see beyond the frantic skating & forced expressions on their faces. I disagree with posters about V/M lifts - they are always original, extremely difficult & thus, take much longer to master because they haven't been practising them for several seasons.
    Yes they reuse some lifts, but I don't think that means that the programs are any easier to master. The rotational lift, where Meryl is in a split position, is familiar, but it's done to different context in this year's program.

    For one thing, it comes at the END of the program and immediately after their straight line lift. That's the thing, D/W's strength is finding new ways to integrate those elements and to use them to tell a different story. They choose not to reinvent the wheel in that arena; it's part of competition strategy.

    If V/M's strategy is to win by learning new lifts every year and master them by Worlds, more power to them.

    And a bit OT on this thread, but I would argue that doing Giselle in a polka pattern is pretty original to me!
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 12-11-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  14. #134
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Yes, I think D&W's Giselle is brilliantly different, too. ND is still a work in progress, as is Carmen, and I can't wait to see both dances at the teams' respective nationals

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    Absolutely, Doris! I'm thrilled that we have two excellent teams at one time, especially teams that are so different from each other.

    I don't want to reopen any of the angrier arguments about size, but another pretty evenly matched team that made it work to their advantage were Denkova and Staviskiy. They even wore similar hairstyles: Maksim wore his hair longer than male ice dancers typically do (with Charlie White another exception!), while Albena kept her hair rather short for a lady skater. The effect was very powerful, I thought. It implied that they were in some sort of telepathic communication and really did skate as one. They remain one of my favorite ice dance couples ever. Here's their exhibition from the first year they won Worlds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-EBnsyPPcc
    Last edited by Olympia; 12-11-2012 at 08:49 AM.

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