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Thread: The New judging system kills figure skating and loses the beauty of sport

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm a teacher. Today I got two plus lessons in shool, because my collegue fell ill. I had an idea, thus I begun to talk about history of Olympic Games, winter olympics, winter sports, finally about figure skating. I said, every sports are developing, like the FS. I showed them some old and new programs only the men's, because I had no time more.( I prefer the men) I didn't tell them the skater's names, anyway they weren't interested in FS, more of them have never watched FS competitons.( In my country isn't too popular sport, even the girls too, are watching the soccer and Formula-1.:( ) They were 34 students, looked at the videos, after they voted.
    Two world champion's SP
    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc

    the old won 31 votes to old and 3 votes to new

    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDb3fuvslfc
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI

    the old won , not too big difference, but won 20 votes to old and 14 votes to new.

    (I don't know it had sense but i was curious after this thread )
    ___________________

    The top skaters can be artistic under the new system, but only they! Most of the skaters are focusing on the technical elements, the steps, and the edges. They have many regulations. But the audience would like to see many nice programs, not fighting with the elements.
    Thank you for publishing the results of your research It makes all sense. I think this is certainly the main reason why the new judging system make figure skating less popular. The skater today focus to much on the element cause this is where they get points, but it certainly less attractive for the audience to watch them today.
    So, in terms of television viewer, it makes the sport less enjoyable to watch because skaters nowadays lack of personality and freedom in their program compared to the past. I think the new judging system is the reason why the people who know nothing about skating enjoy most the 6.0 system. Skaters today are like robots and tend to perform for points and not to please their audience.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm a teacher. Today I got two plus lessons in school, because my collegue fell ill. I had an idea, thus I begun to talk about history of Olympic Games, winter olympics, winter sports, finally about figure skating. I said, every sports are developing, like the FS. I showed them some old and new programs only the men's, because I had no time more.( I prefer the men) I didn't tell them the skater's names, anyway they weren't interested in FS, more of them have never watched FS competitons.( In my country isn't too popular sport, even the girls too, are watching the soccer and Formula-1.:( ) They were 34 students, looked at the videos, after they voted.
    Two world champion's SP
    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc

    the old won 31 votes to old and 3 votes to new

    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDb3fuvslfc
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI

    the old won , not too big difference, but won 20 votes to old and 14 votes to new.

    (I don't know it had sense but i was curious after this thread )
    ___________________

    The top skaters can be artistic under the new system, but only they! Most of the skaters are focusing on the technical elements, the steps, and the edges. They have many regulations. But the audience would like to see many nice programs, not fighting with the elements.

    Interesting research. As a teacher, you do have a unique chance to get feedback in classroom, wish we could see more figure skating fan/teacher give us some enlightenment.

  3. #63
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    The comparison between Plushenko and Chan is a perfect one for the purpose of this thread. Plushenko owned the ice, he owned the audience, he owned the universe. But if you look at the actual steps, turns and skating movements that he does, especially in his footwork sequence, you can see that he does practically nothing that the CoP would give a rusty hoot about. Some dancing on his toes, that's about it.

    Chan, on ythe other hand, does everything the CoP likes. His feet are constantly moving, changing edge, changing direction, a long sequence on one foot. 9.0 for Transitions. His spins have the required number of rotations and changes of position, but do not add anything to the overall impact of the program.

    -1 deduction for Chan for not using the original classic Dave Brubeck/Paul Desmond Take Five. (Jazz great Brubeck passed away last week at age 92.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-10-2012 at 03:35 PM.

  4. #64
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilywang View Post
    Interesting research. As a teacher, you do have a unique chance to get feedback in classroom, wish we could see more figure skating fan/teacher give us some enlightenment.
    I will not do another poll , this was an unique opportunity

  5. #65
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    They voted for Candeloro instead of Daisuke?

    And interesting you showed Flamenco from Plush, its my least favorite 6.0 program of his probably.

    Btw once I had shown at a primary school too Plushenko and SLutskaya montages as how you can make a montage, and they seemed to prefer Slutskaya.

  6. #66
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I will not do another poll , this was an unique opportunity
    You never know. Maybe your colleague will get sick again.

  7. #67
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    I'm curious why artistic skating isn't more popular if the issue is current requirements are killing figure skating. Will people (in the US) only watch champions competing?

    Oddly, in the day of Tiger Woods golf was a HUGE sport. Now, golf is hurting. The number of players, rounds, and courses is declining.

    I think sport popularity must be cyclical. If there is an up, there has to be a down. It's going to have to take something "fresh" and exciting to revitalize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Sorry about that, but the fact remains that double axels-double toes, etc. evolved into triple doubles and triple-triples under the old system and now they are back. I don't see this as an advancement in technical skills.
    What the heck are you talking about? Ashley's jump content is not in any way worse than a typical jump content of 6.0 era. In the decade of 90s the limit in jump content was almost achieved in ladies simply because they hit the physical wall. But thanks to the new system which introduced GOEs, jumps themselves are generally much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm a teacher. Today I got two plus lessons in school, because my collegue fell ill. I had an idea, thus I begun to talk about history of Olympic Games, winter olympics, winter sports, finally about figure skating. I said, every sports are developing, like the FS. I showed them some old and new programs only the men's, because I had no time more.( I prefer the men) I didn't tell them the skater's names, anyway they weren't interested in FS, more of them have never watched FS competitons.( In my country isn't too popular sport, even the girls too, are watching the soccer and Formula-1.:( ) They were 34 students, looked at the videos, after they voted.
    Two world champion's SP
    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc

    the old won 31 votes to old and 3 votes to new

    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDb3fuvslfc
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI

    the old won , not too big difference, but won 20 votes to old and 14 votes to new.

    (I don't know it had sense but i was curious after this thread )
    ___________________

    The top skaters can be artistic under the new system, but only they! Most of the skaters are focusing on the technical elements, the steps, and the edges. They have many regulations. But the audience would like to see many nice programs, not fighting with the elements.
    This is as flawed as it can get. Interestingly, not so long ago I complained in my blog, that for newer fans it can be pretty difficult to see why Patrick Chan is so good in comparison with other skaters. In fact, even not so new fans may have their troubles. So I'm not surprised at the result of your poll, but I'm pretty sure that the result would be different if you showed them recent Javier, Yuzuru, or Daisuke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what you're proposing, but this sounds exactly what the technical panel already is and does. Except the technical specialists are not necessarily judges.
    Ah, let me explain. I essentially want three technical controllers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the current system either takes the level as announced by the technical controller or by the other two technical callers if they veto him/her. I can't understand why one judge can determine somethings as important as levels, particularly in ice dance where a step sequence 2 and a step sequence 3 makes a difference of 1.5 points in base value.

    I think the levels should be called and have them all count. So if all technical controllers say that a spin sequence is a Level 3, then it's a Level 3. But if one technical controller calls it as a 3 and the other two call it a 4, then they should add the base values of all three calls and then divide by 3. The same goes for whenever under-rotation or edge violations are called.

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    I know a little more about how it works, but I'm not an expert.

    From what I've witnessed, the three members of the panel work together as a team.

    Before the competition they decide which of them is going to be responsible for watching for specific features in the leveled elements (or for watching the man vs. the lady in the couples events), because often there are too many things for one person to keep track of all at once.

    For example, in the step sequence the Technical Specialist might be counting the number of each kind of turn and step to determine whether the sequence meets the criteria for simple variety, variety, or complexity and also looking out for the clusters of difficult turns; the Assistant Tech Specialist might keep track of the rotations in each direction and the Technical Controller might keep track of the upper body movement. Once it's clear that the skater has started a step sequence, the TS says "Step Sequence"; at the end of the sequence the ATS and TC each say "yes" or "no" depending on whether the skater achieved the feature they were in charge of, and then the TS adds the number of yeses to the features s/he was in charge of and announces "Level 3" (or whatever level that skater earned).

    If the TC or the ATS disagrees, or even if the TS is not sure about something the skater did or about how what they did fits the rules, they can say "Review" and they'll watch the replay after the program to come to a final decision. They try not to review whole step sequences because it takes a long time, but they will if there's a question about the correct level.

    For jumps, the TS just says the name of the jump, and if there is any question about the rotation or takeoff edge either the TS or one of the other panel members will say "Review," and they'll verify with the replay afterward.

    So basically, during the program, if anyone disagrees with the initial call, they'll request a review. If they review the video afterward and don't all agree on what the call should be, then 2 out of 3 wins, no matter who the odd person out was.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm a teacher. Today I got two plus lessons in school, because my collegue fell ill. I had an idea, thus I begun to talk about history of Olympic Games, winter olympics, winter sports, finally about figure skating. I said, every sports are developing, like the FS. I showed them some old and new programs only the men's, because I had no time more.( I prefer the men) I didn't tell them the skater's names, anyway they weren't interested in FS, more of them have never watched FS competitons.( In my country isn't too popular sport, even the girls too, are watching the soccer and Formula-1.:( ) They were 34 students, looked at the videos, after they voted.
    Two world champion's SP
    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc

    the old won 31 votes to old and 3 votes to new

    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDb3fuvslfc
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI

    the old won , not too big difference, but won 20 votes to old and 14 votes to new.

    (I don't know it had sense but i was curious after this thread )
    ___________________

    The top skaters can be artistic under the new system, but only they! Most of the skaters are focusing on the technical elements, the steps, and the edges. They have many regulations. But the audience would like to see many nice programs, not fighting with the elements.
    The testing method isn't that great. What you testing really shows is that one specific program is better than another specific program. If you used Patrick Chan's 2011 SP instead of his flawed 2012 SP or perhaps Hanyu's SP at this year's Skate America or NHK Trophy, it would been a fairer comparison. For the long program, Chan's 2011 Nationals FP would be a better pick.

    Nonetheless, I agree that complexity is overrated. Many times, the best things in the world are simplicity done well.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I know a little more about how it works, but I'm not an expert.

    From what I've witnessed, the three members of the panel work together as a team.

    Before the competition they decide which of them is going to be responsible for watching for specific features in the leveled elements (or for watching the man vs. the lady in the couples events), because often there are too many things for one person to keep track of all at once.

    For example, in the step sequence the Technical Specialist might be counting the number of each kind of turn and step to determine whether the sequence meets the criteria for simple variety, variety, or complexity and also looking out for the clusters of difficult turns; the Assistant Tech Specialist might keep track of the rotations in each direction and the Technical Controller might keep track of the upper body movement. Once it's clear that the skater has started a step sequence, the TS says "Step Sequence"; at the end of the sequence the ATS and TC each say "yes" or "no" depending on whether the skater achieved the feature they were in charge of, and then the TS adds the number of yeses to the features s/he was in charge of and announces "Level 3" (or whatever level that skater earned).

    If the TC or the ATS disagrees, or even if the TS is not sure about something the skater did or about how what they did fits the rules, they can say "Review" and they'll watch the replay after the program to come to a final decision. They try not to review whole step sequences because it takes a long time, but they will if there's a question about the correct level.

    For jumps, the TS just says the name of the jump, and if there is any question about the rotation or takeoff edge either the TS or one of the other panel members will say "Review," and they'll verify with the replay afterward.

    So basically, during the program, if anyone disagrees with the initial call, they'll request a review. If they review the video afterward and don't all agree on what the call should be, then 2 out of 3 wins, no matter who the odd person out was.
    This is pretty accurate. If there is a disagreement on an issue, the TC breaks the impasse.

  13. #73
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I've asked about this several times, and may have misunderstood some of it, but in dance, particularly in judging the pattern dance part of the SD, if the man and the lady are given separate key points that are done at the same time (say both the man and the lady are doing a choctaw for key points 2 & 3) typically, the techspecialist assigns the Yes, No, or TimingFault for the lady, and the assistant tech specialist does it for the man.

    On any call, if the assistant tech specialist & tech specialist disagree on a level, the one who didn't make the call may challenge (or the controller may too), This is part of the delay when waiting for the scores to come up, as they review the step in slo mo and vote. If the specialists disagree the controller gets the deciding vote.

    So really think, especially for the SD, that dance panels should have 5 members. Things are far too dependent on one person's eyes in the real time assignment part, particularly in the SD pattern dance.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-11-2012 at 06:49 AM.

  14. #74
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You never know. Maybe your colleague will get sick again.
    I do not want them.

    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    They voted for Candeloro instead of Daisuke?

    And interesting you showed Flamenco from Plush, its my least favorite 6.0 program of his probably.

    Btw once I had shown at a primary school too Plushenko and SLutskaya montages as how you can make a montage, and they seemed to prefer Slutskaya.
    I just understand..I would like to take part in your lessons, I adore your montages.



    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    The testing method isn't that great. What you testing really shows is that one specific program is better than another specific program. If you used Patrick Chan's 2011 SP instead of his flawed 2012 SP or perhaps Hanyu's SP at this year's Skate America or NHK Trophy, it would been a fairer comparison. For the long program, Chan's 2011 Nationals FP would be a better pick.

    Nonetheless, I agree that complexity is overrated. Many times, the best things in the world are simplicity done well.
    Maybe. It was a sudden idea, not a scientificly prepared poll. When I choose the videos I wanted to show the best in the system or very popular and wellknown programs. Everybody says Chan is the best in new system. And I love Daisuke's program.
    Last edited by plushyfan; 12-11-2012 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #75
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    gkelly, your description of how it works is pretty accurate.

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