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Thread: The New judging system kills figure skating and loses the beauty of sport

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    This is pretty accurate. If there is a disagreement on an issue, the TC breaks the impasse.
    So what happens if the TS and the ATS agree with each other, but the TC has a different opinion?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I'm a teacher. Today I got two plus lessons in school, because my collegue fell ill. I had an idea, thus I begun to talk about history of Olympic Games, winter olympics, winter sports, finally about figure skating. I said, every sports are developing, like the FS. I showed them some old and new programs only the men's, because I had no time more.( I prefer the men) I didn't tell them the skater's names, anyway they weren't interested in FS, more of them have never watched FS competitons.( In my country isn't too popular sport, even the girls too, are watching the soccer and Formula-1.:( ) They were 34 students, looked at the videos, after they voted.
    Two world champion's SP
    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc

    the old won 31 votes to old and 3 votes to new

    old
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDb3fuvslfc
    new
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8YxSJqcLyI

    the old won , not too big difference, but won 20 votes to old and 14 votes to new.

    (I don't know it had sense but i was curious after this thread )
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    The top skaters can be artistic under the new system, but only they! Most of the skaters are focusing on the technical elements, the steps, and the edges. They have many regulations. But the audience would like to see many nice programs, not fighting with the elements.
    Genius! I am not a teacher but I'll try the similar research with the crowd that are not fs fans actually, to get their not-biased opinions. I quite rarely ask those who don't follow fs what they think of this and that (youtube, or TV if the competition is on). Actually most of them say the things that give me only more reasons to be vocal on fs boards. It's amasing to see that not even the best work of Plu won your poll with such a HUGE gap. I also understand why in the second poll the old won, but with way lesser gap. Because even this ugly judging system can't hide Daisuke's talent .

    Thanks for the idea!
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-11-2012 at 11:41 AM.

  3. #78
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    I tried something similar over at FSU, comparing freeskates from the ladies' world bronze medalists in odd-numbered years from 1981 through 2011: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...-of-the-Bronze

    Only got a few responses -- feel free to go over there and add your opinions, or we could do a similar exercise here.

    My personal favorites from that selection of programs ended up being 2011, 2009, 1987, 1991, 2005 -- so skewing more toward the IJS era and only one from the no-figures 6.0 era. Other posters would have different opinions.

    Using gold or silver performances, or even years, or men, my results would have been different.

    So I think we'd need a lot more data points to draw any conclusions that one era was objectively better than another. I just figure that there are good and bad and mediocre programs in any era and I'll try to enjoy the best parts of whatever I'm watching "now."

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Genius! I am not a teacher but I'll try the similar research with the crowd that are not fs fans actually, to get their not-biased opinions. I quite rarely ask those who don't follow fs what they think of this and that (youtube, or TV if the competition is on). Actually most of them say the things that give me only more reasons to be vocal on fs boards. It's amasing to see that not even the best work of Plu won your poll with such a HUGE gap. I also understand why in the second poll the old won, but with way lesser gap. Because even this ugly judging system can't hide Daisuke's talent .

    Thanks for the idea!
    Thanks.... It would be better if I more time had been, and I show them other programs. I think would be more thorough and exact.
    Last edited by plushyfan; 12-11-2012 at 12:27 PM.

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    I agree with Mathman and Coolboogie. I think under 6.0, you saw two things you don't see today: fan pleasing moves that may not be that "hard" (like Phillippe's swordfight and Plushy's tapdance) that are now gone because they don't get a lot of points. You'd also see more "theme" skates, where a man (usually) would portray a character. That's not completely gone, as Javier was Charlie Chaplin the other day, but it seems less common. The programs in general seem more serious and less joyful, and I wonder it that is because that's what's rewarded more under the new system, or if it's a trend.

    Figure skating purists and diehard fans may like the new system better because the results are fairer, but I think if it is resulting in duller programs, casual viewers may be turned off. I'm sure there are a certain percentage of people who watch to be entertained and don't care who wins, so they'd rather see a tapdancing swordfighting Napoleon than a plain old skater with deep edges and bent knees.

  6. #81
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Well, we may be beating a dead horse here, but gotta make glue somehow, right? My 2 cents on the COP is that the basic framework and premise of the COP is awesome and necessary. Competitors building scores from scratch, with baseline values and everything clearly delineated in a score sheet afterwards. It sure explains a lot more than the unfathomable black box that was the 6.0 score.

    That doesn't mean I like how the IJS implements the COP, though. First of all, I loathe the anonymous judging system. Transparency is the most basic ingredient in holding officials accountable. Without it there is no accountability. That's the biggie.

    Secondly and secondarily, the IJS too often confuses complexity/busywork for difficulty/achievement. Witness the current death spiral. But the ISU has been curbing a lot of that lately, with the choreographic sequence being a lovely bit of simplification that's working out great. Now they just need to apply some of that to spins, the death spiral, pair and dance lifts, etc.

    Thirdly, and this is perhaps most relevant to the topic at hand, the PCS needs to reward artistic performance more. Right now, PCS seems to mainly reflect skating skills, which is only one of the many components. Now I love good skating skills, and I love how much it's being emphasized in every discipline now. But I absolutely hate it when I see a skater or team give a remarkably beautiful or musical or emotional performance and not have the relevant PCS reflect that just because that skater/team doesn't have the greatest skating skills. When that happens, it will naturally encourage more crowd-pleasing performances to emerge, among other kinds of increased artistryacross the board.

  7. #82
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Well, we may be beating a dead horse here, but gotta make glue somehow, right? My 2 cents on the COP is that the basic framework and premise of the COP is awesome and necessary. Competitors building scores from scratch, with baseline values and everything clearly delineated in a score sheet afterwards. It sure explains a lot more than the unfathomable black box that was the 6.0 score.

    That doesn't mean I like how the IJS implements the COP, though. First of all, I loathe the anonymous judging system. Transparency is the most basic ingredient in holding officials accountable. Without it there is no accountability. That's the biggie.

    Secondly and secondarily, the IJS too often confuses complexity/busywork for difficulty/achievement. Witness the current death spiral. But the ISU has been curbing a lot of that lately, with the choreographic sequence being a lovely bit of simplification that's working out great. Now they just need to apply some of that to spins, the death spiral, pair and dance lifts, etc.

    Thirdly, and this is perhaps most relevant to the topic at hand, the PCS needs to reward artistic performance more. Right now, PCS seems to mainly reflect skating skills, which is only one of the many components. Now I love good skating skills, and I love how much it's being emphasized in every discipline now. But I absolutely hate it when I see a skater or team give a remarkably beautiful or musical or emotional performance and not have the relevant PCS reflect that just because that skater/team doesn't have the greatest skating skills. When that happens, it will naturally encourage more crowd-pleasing performances to emerge, among other kinds of increased artistryacross the board.
    Thanks for writing such a well-thought-out, interesting post! I'm inclined to agree with most of it - perhaps that is why I like it so?

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So what happens if the TS and the ATS agree with each other, but the TC has a different opinion?
    Then the TC's opinion is left out. It is the opinion of the majority of the panel that counts. If there are unclear cases the benefit should always go to the skater.

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    In order to test which program the kids prefer, I think it would have been better to use the same skater. That way you could have eliminated the fact that the kids might have actually preferred the skater instead of a program. You could have used Plushenko form the pre COP era and Plushenko now. I think the reason they preferred Candeloro for Takahashi was that Candeloro's musketeer program is very entertaining, now it could have been a show number and it's understandable that young people prefer those kind of programs, they go to see Disney on Ice for example.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    In order to test which program the kids prefer, I think it would have been better to use the same skater. That way you could have eliminated the fact that the kids might have actually preferred the skater instead of a program. You could have used Plushenko form the pre COP era and Plushenko now. I think the reason they preferred Candeloro for Takahashi was that Candeloro's musketeer program is very entertaining, now it could have been a show number and it's understandable that young people prefer those kind of programs, they go to see Disney on Ice for example.
    But isn't that exactly the point? To the casual, non-figure skating fan, maybe the new programs lack... well... entertainment value?

  11. #86
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    In order to test which program the kids prefer, I think it would have been better to use the same skater. That way you could have eliminated the fact that the kids might have actually preferred the skater instead of a program. You could have used Plushenko form the pre COP era and Plushenko now. I think the reason they preferred Candeloro for Takahashi was that Candeloro's musketeer program is very entertaining, now it could have been a show number and it's understandable that young people prefer those kind of programs, they go to see Disney on Ice for example.
    I said that voting wasn't scientific, I chose quickly. But most of the students were 17 y.o., so they understood very well my question. But do you think they chose Plushenko as a skater and not Chan?! Oh ,no, no that's unbeliveable!! Plushenko who is only a jumper, who hasn't skating skills, who skates jumps to jumps, who hasn't footwork, and lack of artistry??? That's totally impossible..( Sorry for my sarcasm )

    I agree with you LRK, probably they voted to the more entertaining program, not to what is more difficult. The really entertaining program is very rare today.

  12. #87
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    Mybe you should make the experiment with Candeloro exhibition that he takes his shirt off, the sex bomb by Plush and Petrenko with Mambo doll Oh and Verner's "I m sexy and I know it"!

  13. #88
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Mybe you should make the experiment with Candeloro exhibition that he takes his shirt off, the sex bomb by Plush and Petrenko with Mambo doll Oh and Verner's "I m sexy and I know it"!
    Yes, I'm sure that would be very entertaining experiment! But I don't forget about Candeloro's another program, I'M too sexy..( Right said Fred )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMFcRNheik

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    What an excellent discussion - best I've seen on this forum so far. I would like to add to one poster's comment about anonymity of the judges. I believe the audience should know how each judge scored. This would reduce any politicking and deals (especially prevalent in ice dance) and make judges accountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I said that voting wasn't scientific, I chose quickly. But most of the students were 17 y.o., so they understood very well my question. But do you think they chose Plushenko as a skater and not Chan?! Oh ,no, no that's unbeliveable!! Plushenko who is only a jumper, who hasn't skating skills, who skates jumps to jumps, who hasn't footwork, and lack of artistry??? That's totally impossible..( Sorry for my sarcasm )

    I agree with you LRK, probably they voted to the more entertaining program, not to what is more difficult. The really entertaining program is very rare today.
    The programs chosen are very much influenced by your views. So it has little reliability in explaining anything. I could find perfectly artistic, beautiful CoP friendly program, by the way, there are plenty, against a dull 6.0 program.

    There is no point to ask for purely entertaining programs in competitions. So "The really entertaining program is very rare today" is no problem at all. And that should not be a reason against CoP.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 12-12-2012 at 03:17 PM.

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