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Thread: The New judging system kills figure skating and loses the beauty of sport

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This would, however, be more impressive if a higher percentage of the quads were actually landed. The typical men's program these days seems to begin with 4T(fall). Then, having gotten the obligatory fall on the quad out of the way, he goes on with the program.
    I kinda fail to see what the system has to do with this. I think it can tweak the number of attempts to do some jumps, but not if they are going to be landed. That depends on skater, not on the system.

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel5555
    Those days most of top junior ladies that are 13 or 14 years old are able to execute 3Lz+3T...
    I am not blaming the scoring system, but how strange it seems that for all those 14-year olds doing 3Lz+3T, where are the top seniors who can manage such content at 18?

    It does seem like there is an exchange -- easier jumps, higher PCSs.

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    Biology?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel5555 View Post
    I kinda fail to see what the system has to do with this. I think it can tweak the number of attempts to do some jumps, but not if they are going to be landed. That depends on skater, not on the system.
    The point is the base value. You get a lot of points for fully rotating the quad, despite taking a fall on the landing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    From a spectator standpoint, the sport has declined a lot in recent years. The programs seem much more "cookie cutter" now, not only in terms of what is actually performed on the ice, but also in terms of costuming, music choice, etc. Previous generations of skaters have projected a lot more personality than the current crop, and when you do have someone who's different one year, they are a lot less unique the next year.

    The men almost all wear black outfits. Except for Javier, I think everyone else did on today's televised GPF. The music is heavy, serious, non-famous classical music. Daisuke, who in the past did tangos in bright costumes is now just one of the crowd (although I at least recognized his song). The ladies all have buns, also favor very heavy music and seem to favor black (though it's not as bad as with the guys). One program seems to run into another. Agnes Z. and Murakami tried something different one year, but came back the next year with buns and heavy music. You never see tomboy types like Tonya or Debi or Irina, and you don't see showmen like Candeloro, either.

    I don't know if the judging system is to blame, but it seems like a lot less personality is projected. Every skater used to have more of a unique style, but as a non-skating tv watcher, I'm just not seeing that anymore. As for Stephanie Rosenthal, she was never seriously a contender, so she had nothing to lose to try something different. Had she learned all the triples and become in the running for a medal, I'm sure she'd put away the robot music and take out the violin concerto.
    Some colourful outfits worn by skaters at the GPF:
    Daisuke Takahashi
    Mao Asada
    Yuzuru Hanyu
    Ashley Wagner
    Patrick Chan
    Akiko Suzuki
    Takahiko Kozuka
    Kiira Korpi

    ....and so on. I'm at a loss at how IJS is being blamed for skaters wearing black. Isn't that more of a personal preference thing among skaters?

    As for memorable and personality-filled programs, I remember as many boring cookie-cutter programs under 6.0 as I do under CoP. Yes, we remember the Alexei Yagudins and the Michelle Kwans and the Philippe Candeloros the most, but there were a lot of just 'crossovers-and-jumps-with token poses' programs as well. We just tend to forget them because they were boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This would, however, be more impressive if a higher percentage of the quads were actually landed. The typical men's program these days seems to begin with 4T(fall). Then, having gotten the obligatory fall on the quad out of the way, he goes on with the program.
    True, but it's still (relatively) early in the season, and many skaters have been debuting new technically-demanding layouts. Skaters have been using the GP series to fine-tune and adjust to their new programs and jump layouts for the big competitions later in the season....just like under 6.0. Maybe I'll change my tune if Worlds turns out to be very splatty, but based on the level of men's skating right now, I think we will see a World Championships with as many good performances as last year's Worlds.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel5555 View Post
    I kinda fail to see what the system has to do with this. I think it can tweak the number of attempts to do some jumps, but not if they are going to be landed. That depends on skater, not on the system.
    Under the 6.0 system, if you fell you were pretty much dead meat.

    In the current system if you fall on a quad you still score higher on that element than for a satisfactory triple Lutz. The scoring system encourages skaters to try tricks that they can't really do, and rewards their failures.

  7. #22
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    On the other hand, if you didn't land a quad, you were pretty much dead meat anyway.

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    Of course all the men used to wear variations on the tuxedo, which would rather make them look like skating waiters. Hmmm, I sense a theme restaurant here (as long as you don't mind the temps! Then again, you would probably get a lot less complaints about food being cold...all things being relative).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am not blaming the scoring system, but how strange it seems that for all those 14-year olds doing 3Lz+3T, where are the top seniors who can manage such content at 18?
    I think the answer is very simple - weight. And also the fact the center of mass of the body changes. And many other things.

    Let's be honest, doing quads in case of men seems to be on the edge of human possibilities. Doing 3Lz+3T or 3A seems to be something similar in case of ladies. So those elements will always remain extremely difficult and will have relatively high probability of failure. Figure skating can't advance linearly, from doubles to triples, from triples to quads and from quads to quintuples. There must be a limit somewhere there.

    And it's not like before skaters did this stuff routinely, it's just that people always focus on top skaters or phenomenons. You can't make another Midori Ito unless you use genetic engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It does seem like there is an exchange -- easier jumps, higher PCSs.
    Because PCSs essentially come with experience. And jumps tend to go away with age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    The point is the base value. You get a lot of points for fully rotating the quad, despite taking a fall on the landing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Under the 6.0 system, if you fell you were pretty much dead meat.

    In the current system if you fall on a quad you still score higher on that element than for a satisfactory triple Lutz. The scoring system encourages skaters to try tricks that they can't really do, and rewards their failures.
    Yeah, but I read another guy (or not?) complaining that skaters don't try difficult jumps. I don't think that after reducing to 0 the points rewarded for making an almost successful quad with a fall we will see more quads than now. Successful or not.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Of course all the men used to wear variations on the tuxedo, which would rather make them look like skating waiters. Hmmm, I sense a theme restaurant here (as long as you don't mind the temps! Then again, you would probably get a lot less complaints about food being cold...all things being relative).
    http://leblogdesovena.com/wp-content...0517876757.jpg

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    It just goes to show you...there ARE no new ideas. Sigh. Another brilliant idea dashed to bits on the rocks of reality...

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    I'm kind of mixed on this topic. I think the men generally handle the new system well, but it is more challenging for women because we have lower muscle mass so it is difficult for ladies to perform so many transitions and do jumps and spins. COP eliminated the spiral sequence, which only impacts the women. The catchfoot requirement (to achieve higher levels) makes most of the spins look the same. COP has really made men and women programs almost identical, whereas before a well skated woman's program looked quite different than a well skated men's program, and I don't like that aspect of the scoring system.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    It just goes to show you...there ARE no new ideas. Sigh. Another brilliant idea dashed to bits on the rocks of reality...
    I think creativity is not popular with the old and outdated judges. If they get some young and hip judges, maybe new creative programs like Blues for Klook would get it's recognized scores. I don't see why skaters would want to push creative boundaries if they're never going to win. Cookie cutter is what gets you that gold, unfortunately.

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    There may be ups and downs, but I don't think the decline in popularity is largely in part due to the system itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by coolboogie22 View Post
    However, thanks for sharing this link! Such an intriguing program, which I wouldn't've seen without the link since I don't bring myself to watch nationals.

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