Half time show: Thoughts from the season so far - MEN | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Half time show: Thoughts from the season so far - MEN

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Hanyu just won the short program at Japan national by a whopping 9+ points
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Hanyu just won the short program at Japan national by a whopping 9+ points

Meanwhile, Patrick Chan will likely win the short program at the Canadian national by at least 3 times that margin that Hanyu posted, but what would that mean exactly?

Nothing I have seen so far among the men this season that comes across as surprising to me. At this level, the ultra competitive men's skating is going to be very unpredictable. I certainly don't expect any skater being able to dominate it for years without losing a single competition like it was the case in Ice Dance for a very long time.

To me, Chan is very much still the man to beat seeing how his PCS is still the highest based on less than stellar performances. The mistakes he made at the GPF did not show any structural weakness in his skating or his jumping technique, meaning that his Quad is still as spectacular as they have been in the last 2 years and his success rate on that jump is still very high. Surely, no one can seriously believe his doubling a Triple Lutz in the SP is indicative of some problem with his jumps. Instead, his Triple Axel is becoming even more consistent than last year, which he actually landed both attempts at the GPF. Yes, there was the zayak, however, note that it was due to the opening error on the Quad, which chained to a series of mishaps that eventually cost him some 15+ points on TES if he had not made the mistake on the opening Quad - yes, it was that costly. You correct that single error alone, he would have easily won the GPF. So what matters is not the result but how the results was achieved. When I considered the why, there is no doubt in my mind Patrick Chan is in terrific shape and definitely on the right track towards Sochi Olympics.

Meanwhile, despite winning the GPF, Takahashi doesn't come across as especially competitive at the moment. There are some signs that his age is catching up to him given he seems unable to fully rotate his jumps these days, leading to several calls of URs across several different competitions this year, including his nationals. This is why it's a little misleading to simply look at the results because on paper, the first Japanese man to win a GPF should be quite glorious, isn't it? In reality, sun is clearly dawning on this great champion of the past - he would be lucky to even retain his national title this year. His GPF win came as a result of spalshfest in the SP where he alone skated very well, then hw crumbled in the LP with a fall, several errors and finished only 3rd in the LP. Hardly the historic moment that a first GPF win by a Japanese should be narrated. That's why it's not a good idea to simply look at the results and passing judgment on skaters or questioning their choices (i.e. whether Morozov is a good choice or not)

Fernandez is on the rise as well, I hope. Coming from a nation where there is barely any FS history, his ascension is nothing short of amazing. At least South Korea still has short-track skating and has been a longstanding member of the ISU - Spain is really a nobody when it comes to any form of skating. But yet, this young man has managed to carve a place for himself among an onslaught of Japanese and North American men who have long dominated this sport in the last several years. With many people noticing Hanyu's very high SP scores when he skates well, I'd say Fernandez is someone who shouldn't be overlooked.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Meanwhile, Patrick Chan will likely win the short program at the Canadian national by at least 3 times that margin that Hanyu posted, but what would that mean exactly?

It would mean 10% as much since at Japanese Nationals Hanyu actually faces numerous great skaters such as Takahashi, while at Canadian Nationals Chan faces a bunch of international nobodies in what is essentialy the equivalent of the Canadian ladies Nationals clown show of the second half of the 90s apart from Chan (and yes that inludes grandpa Sandhu).
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
To me, Chan is very much still the man to beat seeing how his PCS is still the highest based on less than stellar performances.
....
Hardly the historic moment that a first GPF win by a Japanese should be narrated.
And what historical moment would you prefer for fs- like when a skater with 3 quads is losing to zamponi with the higest PCS based on less than stellar performance? Oh, wait it's not even the historical thing since it's too routinely done :laugh:.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Meanwhile, Patrick Chan will likely win the short program at the Canadian national by at least 3 times that margin that Hanyu posted, but what would that mean exactly?

Nothing I have seen so far among the men this season that comes across as surprising to me. At this level, the ultra competitive men's skating is going to be very unpredictable. I certainly don't expect any skater being able to dominate it for years without losing a single competition like it was the case in Ice Dance for a very long time.

To me, Chan is very much still the man to beat seeing how his PCS is still the highest based on less than stellar performances. The mistakes he made at the GPF did not show any structural weakness in his skating or his jumping technique, meaning that his Quad is still as spectacular as they have been in the last 2 years and his success rate on that jump is still very high. Surely, no one can seriously believe his doubling a Triple Lutz in the SP is indicative of some problem with his jumps. Instead, his Triple Axel is becoming even more consistent than last year, which he actually landed both attempts at the GPF. Yes, there was the zayak, however, note that it was due to the opening error on the Quad, which chained to a series of mishaps that eventually cost him some 15+ points on TES if he had not made the mistake on the opening Quad - yes, it was that costly. You correct that single error alone, he would have easily won the GPF. So what matters is not the result but how the results was achieved. When I considered the why, there is no doubt in my mind Patrick Chan is in terrific shape and definitely on the right track towards Sochi Olympics.
I should think that the difference between a 9-point margin over Takahashi (and even more over Kozuka, Mura, Oda et al.) vs. a 20 point (or more) margin over Kevin Reynolds and the other Canadian men is obvious.

PCS rises when skaters start consistently delivering programs with difficult TES. Hanyu and Fernandez are on the rise (whether one feels it is justified or not) while Chan is almost maxed out. And they have harder elements in their arsenal. The days in which Patrick Chan could easily dominate are over; this does not mean that he should expect bronze medals or worse from here on out, but I am beginning to suspect that Chan is now on the down side of his peak, and facing an extremely competitive field without a proper technical coach is probably not a good idea.

At this point, I'm not even going to try and guess what might happen in Sochi.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
At this point, I'm not even going to try and guess what might happen in Sochi.

Which is the approach we all should take, I think. After all, who would have guessed that Evan Lysacek would win in Vancouver? Who would have guessed, in another discipline, that either Sarah Hughes or Shizuka Arakawa would win in their respective Games? Just about the closest to a sure thing occurred in 2010, with YuNa and Virtue/Moir. Everything else was up for grabs. Repeat after me: Ice is slippery. The future is open.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Virtue/Moir were not a sure thing even with home ice advantage. Davis and White had beaten them at the GPF just a couple months before. If they had been any less then perfect they would have lost. As it was they didn't beat Davis and White by much.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
It would mean 10% as much since at Japanese Nationals Hanyu actually faces numerous great skaters such as Takahashi, while at Canadian Nationals Chan faces a bunch of international nobodies in what is essentialy the equivalent of the Canadian ladies Nationals clown show of the second half of the 90s apart from Chan (and yes that inludes grandpa Sandhu).

I agree. Why the poster you are responding to doesn't see the difference is difficult to understand.

Here is Hanyu's sp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJw2kqoaw_Q

Re Adam: I think his problem is he won't let his coaches coach him.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
I agree. Why the poster you are responding to doesn't see the difference is difficult to understand.
I don't think WallyL meant what pangtongfan thought. I will leave it to WallyL to clarify.;)

pantongfan said:
while at Canadian Nationals Chan faces a bunch of international nobodies in what is essentialy the equivalent of the Canadian ladies Nationals clown show of the second half of the 90s apart
I think there is no need to denigrate the past and present Canadian skaters who have not achieved very high outcomes in international competitions. They all worked hard to be as good as they were/are.
 

noidont

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Daisuke and Yuzuru might be battling for Worlds gold this year. I do think Yuzuru is sometimes overscored in PCS. There is some major awkwardness in his movements (and I don't think his skating skill is completely en par with Chan and Takahashi). I like his short and think it's very well choreographed, but it doesn't suit him.
Patrick Chan seems distracted this year. It happens when you are in a long term long distance relationship.
Not really impressed with anybody else except for Fernandez's quads. Rippon is a hot mess. Abbott seems too old and unfit. Farris is good but not memorable yet.
And I'll say this again albeit not pc, Jason Brown is a top notch ladies' skater...(sometimes not even quite). I don't know what people see in him (even Rippon was WJC twice, Brown isn't and won't be). And he is not the kind of macho sexy skater ISU likes.
Would be interesting to see who Russia sends to Worlds.
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
And I'll say this again albeit not pc, Jason Brown is a top notch ladies' skater...(sometimes not even quite). I don't know what people see in him (even Rippon was WJC twice, Brown isn't and won't be). And he is not the kind of macho sexy skater ISU likes.
.

What people see in Jason is a strong artistic sense. You are right that his jump content will hold him back competitively, but there is no need to get into the gender nonsense. That attitude is harmful to young men who don't fit the mold.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Mrs. P, looks like we both were wrong re: Kozuka and Oda.

Didn't see it coming.

Yes, sadly.

I guess we're even, I was right about my prediction regarding Kozuka's spot being in danger, but not correct as far as Oda being the one to take it. (Though Oda did beat Kozuka in the end).

That said, I am happy for Mura. No he doesn't have the program components as a whole (though his skating skills are good), but the beauty of COP, in my view, that you can use your strength to make up for your weaknesses. Mura TES helped him greatly (he was second in the SP). I think his jumps are quite lovely and I'm glad that he was able to rise to the occassion.

I hope Oda and Kozuka come back strong next season.
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
I have seen Jason Brown skating and he doesn't look girly to me. I saw creativity, good flexibility and attention to details but lack of big jumps, like Triple Axel or Quads. If the latter is what make you think he is a "ladies skater", then that's your opinion but I don't share it. On the other hand, the heavy make up, tight shirts, gloves that Hanyu wears - and his attempt to mimic Johnny Weir - really, the only thing missing is the flower crown. I can see some people will easily mistook him for a girl if shown to causal fans who don't follow the sport on an everyday basis.

There are a lot of ways that you could have chosen to 'defend' Jason. Bringing up another skater in that way, and judging him on his appearance like that, is just tasteless. We're talking about teenagers here.
Besides that, I suppose that someone wearing 'heavy make up' would at least try to cover up his spots :laugh:
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
There are a lot of ways that you could have chosen to 'defend' Jason. Bringing up another skater in that way, and judging him on his appearance like that, is just tasteless. We're talking about teenagers here.
Besides that, I suppose that someone wearing 'heavy make up' would at least try to cover up his spots :laugh:

Edit: This is a response to wallylutz. Does Yuzuru really put on heavy make up? O_O I am shocked, although it does appear that he has really nice skin. And tight shirts.....that's only relevant in practices. Look at those super baggy clothes he wears outside the rink.
 

kimganos

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
There are a lot of ways that you could have chosen to 'defend' Jason. Bringing up another skater in that way, and judging him on his appearance like that, is just tasteless. We're talking about teenagers here.
Besides that, I suppose that someone wearing 'heavy make up' would at least try to cover up his spots :laugh:

:agree: Pathetic!
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
The thing that bugs me about this whole discussion is that it reminds me just how out of touch figure skating can be. The world is a very different place from sixty years ago when Dick Button was winning medals or even from twenty years ago when male skaters were dropping like flies. We live in a much more tolerant world when it comes to gender and identity yet some want to continue to force a very specific concept of masculinity on male skaters regardless of whatever their natural identity happens to be. It's unnecessary and frustrating. Plus, I think that fakeness may be playing a small role in the lack of interest in the sport in some countries.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Regardless of Yuzuru wears on his face or otherwise, it doesn't change that if he keeps progressing this season and skates his FS to its fullest potential (2 quads and 7 triples and all the transitions in between) and keeps skating the SP the way he did for 3 of his 4 competitions this year , he has the potential to have a TES of nearly 100 points that will make him a key contender at Worlds even if other skaters get higher PCS.
 
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