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Thread: Asada shows improvement

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    If it is one thing, i wouldn't have batted an eye, but when it is a whole series of major changes all goes on at the same time, how is it circumstantial?
    Most of those changes (UR, wrong edge deductions) benefit almost every female skater. Only increasing the value of the 3A directly benefits Mao, but I think it's proper because the jump is much harder than was reflected in the previous code.

  2. #92
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Most of those changes (UR, wrong edge deductions) benefit almost every female skater. Only increasing the value of the 3A directly benefits Mao, but I think it's proper because the jump is much harder than was reflected in the previous code.
    I would say it like this. More lenient UR and wrong edge rules benefit all female skaters who flutz and under-rotate their jumps. For those skaters who don't, the new rules are relatively disadvantageous.

    I think if you look at Kim's Olympic free skate, it seems like the ISU went pretty much right down the line to level the playing field. As Mary01 points out, Kim's biggest advantage was that she got 11.00 points in GOEs for her jumps. This is more than an extra quad. Under the new rules, with the same judging, she would get only 7.7 points. (The new rules would have reduced Asada's score by only 0.58 points.)

    The biggest thing, though, is the new post-Olympic rule that prevents three double Axels. Kim did 2A+2Lo+2T, 2A+3T, and solo 2A. The new rule negates the advantage of any skater who wants to attempt two triple-triples or a triple-triple plus a 2A-triple. If you do too many triple-triples you are Zayaked out with nothing to fill your seventh pass with.

    In principle this rule affects all skaters (and I actually think it is a good rule). But in actual fact it inconveniences only those skaters who do can do 3/3 and 2A/3T. In contrast, a skater with a triple Axel is home free -- she can do 3A, a triple-triple, and still do two 2A's at the end if she does not have the full complement of jumps.

  3. #93
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would say it like this. More lenient UR and wrong edge rules benefit all female skaters who flutz and under-rotate their jumps. For those skaters who don't, the new rules are relatively disadvantageous.

    I think if you look at Kim's Olympic free skate, it seems like the ISU went pretty much right down the line to level the playing field. As Mary01 points out, Kim's biggest advantage was that she got 11.00 points in GOEs for her jumps. This is more than an extra quad. Under the new rules, with the same judging, she would get only 7.7 points. (The new rules would have reduced Asada's score by only 0.58 points.)

    The biggest thing, though, is the new post-Olympic rule that prevents three double Axels. Kim did 2A+2Lo+2T, 2A+3T, and solo 2A. The new rule negates the advantage of any skater who wants to attempt two triple-triples or a triple-triple plus a 2A-triple. If you do too many triple-triples you are Zayaked out with nothing to fill your seventh pass with.

    In principle this rule affects all skaters (and I actually think it is a good rule). But in actual fact it inconveniences only those skaters who do can do 3/3 and 2A/3T. In contrast, a skater with a triple Axel is home free -- she can do 3A, a triple-triple, and still do two 2A's at the end if she does not have the full complement of jumps.
    well.. if that's what ISU is aiming for then i'm literally annoyed. i mean if they want to give incentives to a lady skater who can do all that then why is it the current ladies are not doing anything with their current jump layouts. majority of them are playing safe..
    if that's the case yuna should not take the risk by going 3/3 in both of her sp and lp.. after all you can win even if you're playing safe..

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    The biggest thing, though, is the new post-Olympic rule that prevents three double Axels. Kim did 2A+2Lo+2T, 2A+3T, and solo 2A. The new rule negates the advantage of any skater who wants to attempt two triple-triples or a triple-triple plus a 2A-triple. If you do too many triple-triples you are Zayaked out with nothing to fill your seventh pass with.

    In principle this rule affects all skaters (and I actually think it is a good rule). But in actual fact it inconveniences only those skaters who do can do 3/3 and 2A/3T. In contrast, a skater with a triple Axel is home free -- she can do 3A, a triple-triple, and still do two 2A's at the end if she does not have the full complement of jumps.
    Talking in terms of Yuna, would this rule inconvenience her if she hypothetically could do a 3Lo? i.e. someone with a legit. full set of triples (with the exception of the triple axel).

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    I agree that the new rule about no 3 2A does not favor Yuna, but I think it is a good rule overall, consistent with restrictions on other triple jumps. Under old rules for GOE, some double axels would score as much as a triple jump with no GOE, so in my opinion it is very reasonable that the same restrictions that exist for triples would apply for 2A. Why should one not be able to repeat a triple more than twice, but allowed to repeat a 2A many times which is worth almost as much? I remember there were some programs with even 4 double axels. Also, with the way GOE was applied under old rules some double axels could score as much as triple flip with zero GOE which probably shouldn't be the case. So I agree with that reduction as well. So even though one can argue that the rule changes did not favor Yuna Kim specifically, I think most of them are quite reasonable in general.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    well.. if that's what ISU is aiming for then i'm literally annoyed. i mean if they want to give incentives to a lady skater who can do all that then why is it the current ladies are not doing anything with their current jump layouts. majority of them are playing safe.
    I agree. Until the ISU gives a bonus for doing more difficult content (i.e. a 3Z-3T plus a solo 2A having a higher base value than a 2A-3T with a solo 3Z) there is no reason to do a 3-3 in the long. I think with Yuna back the ladies are going to have to improve their jump content to be competitive, and I suspect that's a big reason why Caro is trying the lutz again.

  7. #97
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Talking in terms of Yuna, would this rule inconvenience her if she hypothetically could do a 3Lo? i.e. someone with a legit. full set of triples (with the exception of the triple axel).
    Gracie Gold can do both a 3-3 and a 2A-3T (or another 3-3) due to having a full set of triples (whether she actually executes the planned layout is another story).

    Here's her layout last year

    3Z-3T
    2A-3T
    3L
    3F
    3Z*
    2A-2T-2L*
    3S*

    two -3T combos, 7 triples, repeats the 3Z and 3T.

    Here's her layout this year.

    3Z-3T
    3F-1L-3S
    2A
    3L
    3F*
    3Z*
    2A-2T

    two 3-3/3-1-3 combos, 7 triples, repeats the the 3Z and 3F. She actually could do a 3F-3T instead on that second pass, but she would have to exchange the second flip for a 3S.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 12-20-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #98
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    Because there was no need for it and because she was injured, and three month short of practice, so why would she attempt something that would agravate her injury further, her health comes in first place, the axel can wait.
    Three month short of practice isn't really an excuse since Yuna was out for 18 months but still managed to land 3lz+3toe

  9. #99
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Talking in terms of Yuna, would this rule inconvenience her if she hypothetically could do a 3Lo? i.e. someone with a legit. full set of triples (with the exception of the triple axel).
    No. If Yu-na did all five triples she would be in business. The rule specifically puts a roadblock before the hypothetical skater who can do a 3Lz+3T, a 2A+3T, but not a 3Lo.

    Conversely, the changes benefit the hypothetical skater who has a 3A, a 3A+2T, but no triple-triple and no 3Lz or 3S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P.
    Here's (Gracie Gold's) layout this year.

    3Z-3T
    3F-1L-3S
    3L
    3F*
    3Z*
    2A-2T-2L*
    What is her seventh jumping pass, a 2A?

    This is a huge layout. On paper she should crush Ashley Wagner at U.S. Nationals. The new rule about the half-loop sequencc allows a lot of cool stuff.

    CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

    This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-20-2012 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #100
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No. If Yu-na did all five triples she would be in business. The rule specifically puts a roadblock before the hypothetical skater who can do a 3Lz+3T, a 2A+3T, but not a 3Lo.

    Conversely, the changes benefit the hypothetical skater who has a 3A, a 3A+2T, but no triple-triple and no 3Lz or 3S.



    What is her seventh jumping pass, a 2A?

    This is a huge layout. On paper she should crush Ashley Wagner at U.S. Nationals. The new rule about the half-loop sequencc allows a lot of cool stuff.

    CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

    This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.
    Yes, it's a 2A, it's her third jumping pass, I believe. I will edit my post. And I think the last jumping pass is just a 2A-2T. My bad.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

    This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.
    No, that's not allowed. The sequence is considered a three jump combo. She could do a sequence AND a three jump combo, but the sequence has to be with multiple steps in between.

  12. #102
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    No, that's not allowed. The sequence is considered a three jump combo. She could do a sequence AND a three jump combo, but the sequence has to be with multiple steps in between.
    Right. Gracie did do a three jump combo with the last 2A at COR, but that's only cause she couldn't do the 3F-1L-3S combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No. If Yu-na did all five triples she would be in business. The rule specifically puts a roadblock before the hypothetical skater who can do a 3Lz+3T, a 2A+3T, but not a 3Lo.

    Conversely, the changes benefit the hypothetical skater who has a 3A, a 3A+2T, but no triple-triple and no 3Lz or 3S.



    What is her seventh jumping pass, a 2A?

    This is a huge layout. On paper she should crush Ashley Wagner at U.S. Nationals. The new rule about the half-loop sequencc allows a lot of cool stuff.

    CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

    This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.
    I think perhaps her team might plan alternative scenarios if she doesn't hit the jumps she wants.

    For example, when she didn't hit the 3F combo at SC, she did a 3F-2T later in the program.
    AT COR, when she didn't do the three jump combo, she did the 3F-2T AND the three jump combo on the last 2A.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 12-20-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  13. #103
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Yu-Na could still do 3Lz+3Toe and 2A+3T in her Long Program, without doing a Triple Loop, and it would be worth more too:

    3Lz+3T
    3F
    2A+2T+2Lo
    -----
    2A+3T
    3Lz
    3S
    2Lz

    Yes, a planned double lutz. I've been suggesting this for several skaters ever since they changed the scale of values after the Olympics (including to Yu-Na's team, when she trained it LA) but apparently nobody can see the wisdom in it.

    The double lutz is worth 2.1 points, which is not insignificant. 2.1 + 7.4 points (from the 2Axel+3Toe combo) = 9.5 points. The 3Sal+2Toe and 2Axel jumping passes that Yu-Na's teams have instead decided upon post-2010 are worth a combined total of 8.8 points, which means Yu-Na is losing .7 points in base value from what should could be getting. She's also losing out on +GOE, since her 2Axel-3Toe is one of the best in the World and she can consistently can get +2 on it (as compared to usually only getting +1 at best for her 3Sal). Most importantly, she is losing that highlight move from her programs, which can result in less PCS because of a feeling that she has less power in her performances.

    I've heard arguments that judges would look down upon a double lutz, but I disagree. A nice 'tano double lutz out of footwork at the end of program, and to the music, would be well regarded...especially with some clever campaigning about how we never see that kind of jump in competition anymore and "oh how brilliant is it that Yu-Na is utilizing jumps like this to express the music."

  14. #104
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    I think 3 2A's is a bit much but it really is going to be silly to see a skater at YuNa's level planning a 2Z.

  15. #105
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think 3 2A's is a bit much but it really is going to be silly to see a skater at YuNa's level planning a 2Z.
    It's not as if she has never done a triple loop. Surely she can bring it back.

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