Asada shows improvement

[Nadia01]

Edge violation on her lutz makes it not lutz. It's like somebody doing a flip & claiming that it's an axel. Or that she was TRYING for an axel, so it should COUNT as an axel. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. It's either an axel or not. It's either lutz or not. There is no "she's trying so she should get full credit for her (insert whatever jump)." It's not like she's the ONLY one trying out there.

[gmyers]

At Vancouver Olympics, she did three triple-axels.

But not at worlds in Torino. In Vancouver it was 3 3As but in Torino two were 3A< so Mao did not do equal triple Axels in Vancouver and Torino which was implied.

[gmyers]

I think people are being unduly harsh on Mao. She's a two-time world champ and Olympic silver medallist who decided to revamp all her jumps in the aim of even greater heights. She might not be getting the results now but she's still a phenomenal talent. It might not work out in the end but at least she'll have left no stone unturned.

I disagree. She is not delivering on jumps in any way. Only if it was the 80's were her jumps be up to par. She is taking advantage of the step values and spin values and on jumps is very very bad and she says she is trying to improve but since the Japan open has only gotten worse on jumps but is winning everything. And her winning programs are just like kostner and ando with like no 3/3 in a fs or no lutz or well placed doubles. I guess she just doesn't like to say she is using the system to her advantage and eliminating almost all hard jumps or combos.

[babayaga]

Edge violation on her lutz makes it not lutz. It's like somebody doing a flip & claiming that it's an axel. Or that she was TRYING for an axel, so it should COUNT as an axel. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. It's either an axel or not. It's either lutz or not. There is no "she's trying so she should get full credit for her (insert whatever jump)." It's not like she's the ONLY one trying out there.

But nobody is claiming she should be getting full credit for a correct lutz. Mao is doing a lutz with a wrong edge, so she is getting credit for a lutz with incorrect edge, as written in the rules. I am sorry but it looks like you are arguing with yourself, making claims and then disproving them.

[Nadia01]

But nobody is claiming she should be getting full credit for a correct lutz. Mao is doing a lutz with a wrong edge, so she is getting credit for a lutz with incorrect edge, as written in the rules. I am sorry but it looks like you are arguing with yourself, making claims and then disproving them.

I'm not arguing with myself. I'm trying to show that people claiming that Mao's doing lutz when she is not doing it correctly at all is nonsensical. I even said it's like somebody doing a flip and claiming that it's an axel b/c that's what she was trying to do. No, it's not an axel if you do it wrong. You can't even say, "It's a wrong-take-off axel" and try to claim it that way either. It either is or not.

[mary01]

And how many ladies can land fully rotate clean triple lutz without changing the edge? Not so many, and those who can usually have problems with the flip. And those who cannot do it just omit the lutz in their program. Mao can't do it with correct edge and yet she goes for it which is really admirable considering the amount of girls giving up on their flutz. Flutz or not, she managed to fully rotated and just go for it. How many girls nowadays go for 7-triples program with all kinds of triples? I'm not even talking about the ladies who are able do it, just how many of them attempt this layout? Mao does even though she has got problems with the lutz and that is admirable indeed. She is working on her issues and I appreciate it a lot. Other girls just give up on a problematic jump and do the ones they feel comfortable with.

ITA, perfectly said!

[Mathman]

I'm not arguing with myself. I'm trying to show that people claiming that Mao's doing lutz when she is not doing it correctly at all is nonsensical. I even said it's like somebody doing a flip and claiming that it's an axel b/c that's what she was trying to do. No, it's not an axel if you do it wrong. You can't even say, "It's a wrong-take-off axel" and try to claim it that way either. It either is or not.

In the many, many, many threads about of flutzes that we have had on this board, I was eventually convinced by those GSers who are actually skaters themselves that there really is such a thing as a "wrong edge takeoff" Lutz. That is, the inside edge/outside edge is only one of several distinctions between a flip and a Lutz. A wrong edge Lutz is not a flip. It is a Lutz with a major error on the take-off, and that is how it is scored in the IJS.

I do not myself know enough about jump mechanics to defend this point of view. But the best explanation that I heard (maybe GKelly will come to my rescue on this ) is that the most important determinant of the Lutz jump is the counter-rotation. That is, the skater's body turns in the opposite direction from the curve of the blade on the ice. This opposite curving is achieved by the long entry on the outside edge. If you switch over to the inside edge at the last moment you are guilty of releasing the counter-rotation prematurely. This carries a -2 GOE in the ISU scoring system, but does not turn a Lutz into a flip for scoring purposes. The technique for a flip is completely different.

[sapphiresky]

In the many, many, many threads about of flutzes that we have had on this board, I was eventually convinced by those GSers who are actually skaters themselves that there really is such a thing as a "wrong edge takeoff" Lutz. That is, the inside edge/outside edge is only one of several distinctions between a flip and a Lutz. A wrong edge Lutz is not a flip. It is a Lutz with a major error on the take-off, and that is how it is scored in the IJS.

I do not myself know enough about jump mechanics to defend this point of view. But the best explanation that I heard (maybe GKelly will come to my rescue on this ) is that the most important determinant of the Lutz jump is the counter-rotation. That is, the skater's body turns in the opposite direction from the curve of the blade on the ice. This opposite curving is achieved by the long entry on the outside edge. If you switch over to the inside edge at the last moment you are guilty of releasing the counter-rotation prematurely. This carries a -2 GOE in the ISU scoring system, but does not turn a Lutz into a flip for scoring purposes. The technique for a flip is completely different.

Thanks for your explanation Mathman of why the jumps are scored differently despite using a wrong edge!

I just don't get why every time there's news about Mao doing better that it's always followed by bashing...can't we be more supportive around here

It's always "yeah she's doing better BUT"
"She still can't do the 3A"

then thread members post: "she's thinking of putting 3A/3-3 back in, she's practicing it"

then "I don't get why she's doing the 3A...it's probably not gonna help her, she probably won't be able to rotate it etc."

Basically, no matter what she does, there's people here that have issues. Jeez people, she's trying.
Just for this, I want Mao to do so well and shut everyone up...I'm rooting for this girl.

[gmyers]

She is doing well. She has won all gps and gpf dong a total kostner and there is nothing more unlikely in skating this season than for Mao to do a 3a or 3/3. She has 4 triples a free skate and it has to be considered that she is being strategic and doing and is doing s kostner or ando. Kostner had no lutz, neither does Mao. Ando never really did a 3/3 and neither does Mao.

[gmyers]

Kostner talked of doing lutzes and ando talked of doing quad salchows or 3 lutz 3 loop. Neither did either.

[Skater Boy]

I am not sure what is going on with the ladies - why is it no one ca do the five triples minus the axel. I am starting to appreciate Rochette more because she was pretty consistent landing them all but the 3A. Mao has a wonderful llyrical quality but again it is easier to have great pcs if you aren't dong the big tricks. She is running out of time. I think if she wanted the #a in she had to use it at the GPfinals. Now she has nationals and 4CCs before world's I think yuna is looking great at this point as was or is Wagner though her GPF was a disapopintment.

[Mrs. P]

Kostner talked of doing lutzes and ando talked of doing quad salchows or 3 lutz 3 loop. Neither did either.

Um Ando DID do 3Z-3L. Not all of them were ratified, but she at least tried to do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u15HCptYOws
She also did the 4S in the 2002 Junior Grand Prix final.

[Mirunna]

Um Ando DID do 3Z-3L. Not all of them were ratified, but she at least tried to do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u15HCptYOws
She also did the 4S in the 2002 Junior Grand Prix final.

Miki had several 3Lz-3Loop combos ratified. She had clean 3Lz-3Loop in SP and LP at 2007 world championships, for example.

[hurrah]

Japanese media reports that Mao landed a 3-axel in practice cleanly.

She commented that 3-axel practice is going well, but in accordance with Coach Sato's advise, will probably not attempt it in competition this time.

Her hip pains are reportedly gone and she did not go to the hospital after returning from GPF.

E.T.A. She attempted the 3-axel twice and landed it both times during the first Japan Nationals practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq27K4NBCmw

[mary01]

Japanese media reports that Mao landed a 3-axel in practice cleanly.

She commented that 3-axel practice is going well, but in accordance with Coach Sato's advise, will probably not attempt it in competition this time.

Her hip pains are reportedly gone and she did not go to the hospital after returning from GPF.

E.T.A. She attempted the 3-axel twice and landed it both times during the first Japan Nationals practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq27K4NBCmw

thank you soomuch for posting this, thatwas a GOURGES 3A hope she will soon include in her programs again, I really love this jump!