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Thread: Should the base value of jumps be different for men and ladies?

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  1. #1
    On the Ice
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    Should the base value of jumps be different for men and ladies?

    Should jump base values be different for ladies than it is for men?
    Since the ISU increased the value of quads it seems as if the quad era is taking off again

    Ladies skating however has regressed technically over the last few seasons and it is mainly due to the problem of the risk is not worth the reward (a similar scenario we saw with men's skating pre 2011)
    If harder jumps like flip and lutz were worth more for ladies maybe we will see the technical contet pick up again like two triple lutzes in a program or tougher triple triple combinations being attempted

  2. #2
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Above all, I don't understand why ISU insists on not changing the BV of triple lutz.

  3. #3
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Yes, I think they reallu should: in the Ladies, there should be a bigger difference between flip/lutz and the other triples, and another big difference between flip and lutz. What about something like this:
    3 LUTZ 6.5
    3 FLIP 5.5
    3 LOOP 5
    3 SALCHOW 4.2
    3 TOELOOP 4.1
    What do you think?

  4. #4
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    Let's ask all coaches who have taught female skaters to do medium-difficult triples. Is triple loop easier for all females who can do harder triples, or is there a sizable percentage of "toe jumpers" for whom triple flip is easier than triple loop?

    I don't think most coaches could answer that question accurately because few will have successfully taught enough women to do those jumps to have a large enough sample size. But if we ask them all, we should get a more accurate answer.

    I do think there is a general consensus that triple flip is closer in difficulty to triple loop than to triple lutz, as the most recent revision of the scale of values reflects.

    * * * * *

    My other question is this, and has a few sides to it.

    Let's take it as a given that triple jumps are difficult and not all good skaters will be able to master all of them to consistent technical perfection. In particular, it is especially dificult for women to do triple lutz from a correct takeoff edge with full rotation. Therefore when it is done correctly we do want to reward it appropriately.

    Is the goal to value this jump so highly that its successful presence in a program will often be the determining factor in the results? We recognize that only a minority of women will be able to perform it successfully, so therefore we want to stack the deck so that, if the other jumping and non-jumping skills are even in the same ballpark, the winner will be a someone who landed triple lutzes in both programs?

    What about all the other skaters who can't do it at all, can only succeed inconsistently, or who almost always change edge and/or underrotate? Do we want to encourage them to put inevitably flawed attempts in their programs or do we want them to stick to jumps they have already mastered?

    There are already benefits to being able to include the triple lutz, compared to doing everything else the same and leaving it out. So I don't think anyone who is leaving it out is doing so because they just don't feel like working on it. They're leaving it out because they are not currently able to take off from the correct edge, rotate, and land it consistently. If they're already doing all or most of the other triples, we can be pretty sure they have already put in plenty of time trying to master the triple lutz.

    So is raising the point value even further likely to help them overcome whatever technical or athletic limitations have prevented them from mastering it consistently already?

  5. #5
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    It is difficult for me to come up with a scenario where raising the point value even further for the lutz will help the kinds of ladies gkelly is referring to, which appear to be a sizable group of senior ladies. But, I have a question about juniors - I don't watch it enough, so I'm asking those who do: are junior lades learning better edges/take - offs with the lutz given the attention to the correct edge now and in recent years? Would 'scaring' them by a larger point spread be the 'benefit' of making a change at the senior level?

    I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).

  6. #6
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    Having a triple lutz in one's repertoire is already just as big advantage at the junior level as in seniors -- even moreso in the years when double or triple lutz is the required solo jump in the junior SP.

    The penalties for wrong-edge takeoff are the same for juniors and seniors.

    Wider hips seems to be a disadvantage for this jump in particular, so there are probably some girls who can do it as juniors and then lose the ability to rotate it completely taking from the correct edge as their bodies mature.

  7. #7
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).
    On the other hand, there are already extra rewards bult in for triple-triples and for all five triples. Without a triple-triple (or a 2A-triple) and all five triples you can't skate a seven triple program.

    For excample, if Kim Yu-na had a loop she could do something liker this:

    3Lz
    3Lz+3T
    3F
    3F+2Lo+2T
    3Lo
    3S
    2A (or 2A+2A SEQ)

    Seven triples, with the two highest repeated. Take away the loop (or any other triple) and she has to scramble.

    Likewise, compared to this program, look how many points a skater would give up if the missing triple was the Lutz.

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