Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: Should the base value of jumps be different for men and ladies?

  1. #1
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    44

    Should the base value of jumps be different for men and ladies?

    Should jump base values be different for ladies than it is for men?
    Since the ISU increased the value of quads it seems as if the quad era is taking off again

    Ladies skating however has regressed technically over the last few seasons and it is mainly due to the problem of the risk is not worth the reward (a similar scenario we saw with men's skating pre 2011)
    If harder jumps like flip and lutz were worth more for ladies maybe we will see the technical contet pick up again like two triple lutzes in a program or tougher triple triple combinations being attempted

  2. #2
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,056
    Above all, I don't understand why ISU insists on not changing the BV of triple lutz.

  3. #3
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    3,027
    Yes, I think they reallu should: in the Ladies, there should be a bigger difference between flip/lutz and the other triples, and another big difference between flip and lutz. What about something like this:
    3 LUTZ 6.5
    3 FLIP 5.5
    3 LOOP 5
    3 SALCHOW 4.2
    3 TOELOOP 4.1
    What do you think?

  4. #4
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,964
    Let's ask all coaches who have taught female skaters to do medium-difficult triples. Is triple loop easier for all females who can do harder triples, or is there a sizable percentage of "toe jumpers" for whom triple flip is easier than triple loop?

    I don't think most coaches could answer that question accurately because few will have successfully taught enough women to do those jumps to have a large enough sample size. But if we ask them all, we should get a more accurate answer.

    I do think there is a general consensus that triple flip is closer in difficulty to triple loop than to triple lutz, as the most recent revision of the scale of values reflects.

    * * * * *

    My other question is this, and has a few sides to it.

    Let's take it as a given that triple jumps are difficult and not all good skaters will be able to master all of them to consistent technical perfection. In particular, it is especially dificult for women to do triple lutz from a correct takeoff edge with full rotation. Therefore when it is done correctly we do want to reward it appropriately.

    Is the goal to value this jump so highly that its successful presence in a program will often be the determining factor in the results? We recognize that only a minority of women will be able to perform it successfully, so therefore we want to stack the deck so that, if the other jumping and non-jumping skills are even in the same ballpark, the winner will be a someone who landed triple lutzes in both programs?

    What about all the other skaters who can't do it at all, can only succeed inconsistently, or who almost always change edge and/or underrotate? Do we want to encourage them to put inevitably flawed attempts in their programs or do we want them to stick to jumps they have already mastered?

    There are already benefits to being able to include the triple lutz, compared to doing everything else the same and leaving it out. So I don't think anyone who is leaving it out is doing so because they just don't feel like working on it. They're leaving it out because they are not currently able to take off from the correct edge, rotate, and land it consistently. If they're already doing all or most of the other triples, we can be pretty sure they have already put in plenty of time trying to master the triple lutz.

    So is raising the point value even further likely to help them overcome whatever technical or athletic limitations have prevented them from mastering it consistently already?

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,680
    It is difficult for me to come up with a scenario where raising the point value even further for the lutz will help the kinds of ladies gkelly is referring to, which appear to be a sizable group of senior ladies. But, I have a question about juniors - I don't watch it enough, so I'm asking those who do: are junior lades learning better edges/take - offs with the lutz given the attention to the correct edge now and in recent years? Would 'scaring' them by a larger point spread be the 'benefit' of making a change at the senior level?

    I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).

  6. #6
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,964
    Having a triple lutz in one's repertoire is already just as big advantage at the junior level as in seniors -- even moreso in the years when double or triple lutz is the required solo jump in the junior SP.

    The penalties for wrong-edge takeoff are the same for juniors and seniors.

    Wider hips seems to be a disadvantage for this jump in particular, so there are probably some girls who can do it as juniors and then lose the ability to rotate it completely taking from the correct edge as their bodies mature.

  7. #7
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,825
    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).
    On the other hand, there are already extra rewards bult in for triple-triples and for all five triples. Without a triple-triple (or a 2A-triple) and all five triples you can't skate a seven triple program.

    For excample, if Kim Yu-na had a loop she could do something liker this:

    3Lz
    3Lz+3T
    3F
    3F+2Lo+2T
    3Lo
    3S
    2A (or 2A+2A SEQ)

    Seven triples, with the two highest repeated. Take away the loop (or any other triple) and she has to scramble.

    Likewise, compared to this program, look how many points a skater would give up if the missing triple was the Lutz.

  8. #8
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,100
    I disagree that having all the triples gets you really rewarded. Look at Akiko's loss at NHK....And look at how some of the girls who do 7 triples get scored. Right now PCS are more important than TES.

    Look, I don't think the sport should be all jumps jumps jumps. But I do think having all the triples and especially having a 3lutz-should be worth more than it is.

  9. #9
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    34
    I do think there should be some adjustments in BV, but I'm more worried about side effects.
    If BV of flip or lutz gets higher, more skater will try the jump - even though the quality isn't quite good.
    Raising BV might cause increase of wrong edge jumpers.
    Even now, I see a lot of strange lutz or flip with incomprehensible entrance and shaky edge.

  10. #10
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,100
    Quote Originally Posted by creme cup View Post
    I do think there should be some adjustments in BV, but I'm more worried about side effects.
    If BV of flip or lutz gets higher, more skater will try the jump - even though the quality isn't quite good.
    Raising BV might cause increase of wrong edge jumpers.
    Even now, I see a lot of strange lutz or flip with incomprehensible entrance and shaky edge.
    My only concern is the edge issues. I do think wrong edges should be punished.

  11. #11
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    519
    no the base value of the jumps should not be different from the Men's and Women´s event, since that would change it into two different sports!

  12. #12
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    407
    I think making the base values different between ladies and mens would unfortunately make an unintentional stance on gender inequality. I would rather see a rule that awards bonus points (at least 2) for performing all the different triples (plus 2A) correctly. That would make the 3Lz pretty much mandatory for the top ladies and encourage skaters to have a balanced technical program.

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    394
    I'm on the fence about different BVs, but scoring already does differ between the Mens and Ladies events, since PCS isn't factored uniformly.

  14. #14
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    410
    I wonder how many of these skaters could do a full set of really excellently executed doubles with correct edges et al. Are they rushing to triples without getting doubles perfect.

    How much harder is a triple toe compared to a correct double lutz?

  15. #15
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,964
    Quote Originally Posted by ivy View Post
    I wonder how many of these skaters could do a full set of really excellently executed doubles with correct edges et al. Are they rushing to triples without getting doubles perfect.

    How much harder is a triple toe compared to a correct double lutz?
    I guess one way to get a sense of this would be to look at novice ladies' protocols. How many are doing correct double lutzes (would you want +1 GOE or accept at least 0 with no edge call?) vs. how many are doing triple toe at all (GOE at least 0 or -1?).

    At least that would be easier research to do than surveying coaches. Although there would be a lot more coaches who have taught multiple skaters to do 2Lz and 3T than who have taught multiple ladies to do 3Lo and 3F.

    We'd need to find novice protocols from different parts of the world, though, because there might be regional trends at work beyond the absolute relative difficulty of the jumps.

    Or the lower-ranked JGP short programs in a year when the solo jump is either loop or flip -- how many do correct 2Lz in their combinations vs. how many do 3T (or 3S)?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •