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Thread: Ice conditions and jumps

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    Ice conditions and jumps

    Kozuka said in the article: "This ice doesn’t allow you to jump your Axels on the very edge, and you have to watch out a little bit.”

    Interesting to know.

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    Very interesting. I suppose each ice surface is different.

    I think it was the 2004 Worlds ladies qualifying round where the ice for the early morning skaters was so bad that every skater had multiple falls. Then by the time the second group came on later in the morning it had softened and all the skaters in the second group did well.

    Also... Here is the difference between how you say things when you are 18 versus how you say the same thing at 26. Hanyu and Takahashi on Plushenko.

    Hanyu: The skater from Sendai admits that it is weird to contemplate a possibility of competing against Evgeni Plushenko.

    “I partly started skating because of Plushenko,” he explained. “I would love to skate with him, but at the same time I don’t want to skate with him. I hope that I will be strong enough to compete against him.”
    Takahashi: "Plushenko is a bit of a dark horse in this big race,” he said when asked about the 2010 Olympic Champion comeback. “It’s a bit scary. He’s going to be 31 and he’s been at the front line for a long time. He always overcomes all these barriers. I will be 27 when the Sochi Olympics come around. I’m looking forward to it if he will kindly accept me as a rival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Kozuka said in the article: "This ice doesn’t allow you to jump your Axels on the very edge, and you have to watch out a little bit.”

    Interesting to know.
    Really? I also thought there was something wrong with the ice that many skaters made mistakes around the same corner of the rink, but I don’t know about the Axels because Daisuke, Hanyu, and Fernandez all did their 3As well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Also... Here is the difference between how you say things when you are 18 versus how you say the same thing at 26. Hanyu and Takahashi on Plushenko.
    I don’t know why you’re highlighting that particular phrase of Hanyu, since he went on to say:
    Hanyu: “I partly started skating because of Plushenko,” he explained. “I would love to skate with him, but at the same time I don’t want to skate with him. I hope that I will be strong enough to compete against him.”
    Daisuke’s “if he will kindly accept me as a rival” is more rhetorical and shows his sophistication. But if I were Plushy I would be more flattered by what Hanyu said, knowing that the current most prodigious skater partly started skating because of me and he hopes he will be strong enough to compete against me because he knows I’m really strong. I think Hanyu has repeated the same thing many times that even I know that Plushy is his idol from childhood. Hanyu’s only 18 and doesn’t know the rhetorics of grownup world, but he speaks with sincerity and innocence of his age. I’m older-about Plushy’s age-and the older I am the more I appreciate sincerity and honesty. And if the sincere prodigy admires me then I’ll be in heaven.

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    The story about the ice quality is a bit of a mystery. Everyone was saying on record (at least in English/Russian to international press) that it is great and so on, but then out of blue we heard second-hand reports that Japanese skaters told either Japanese press or someone else that it is awful I don't think I have seen a direct quote and/or source for this info (I am a bit out of the loop here, though, we did search for it then the news broke out but there unable to trace it, maybe someone has managed to do it since the time).

    The worst thing *I* have heard about the ice was from one of Juniors, who was in Sochi early and said that the venue staff was very attentive and they kept asking them if the ice is 'ok', if it should be done any differently and actually went ahead and changed it the next day. Some apparently thought that it would have been better if they just left the ice alone and let skaters get used to it once and for all (tournament) because the it is a part of the deal for skaters to get used to the conditions and consistently 'ok' ice is better than 'ok'-->'better'-->'good' over the course of three days


    Re. Men medallists speaking about Plushenko come back, frankly I could not help thinking that they were being polite rather than earnest in their replies. Hanyu, well, maybe I can understand a bit of trepidation, but I find it hard to believe that the likes of Chan or Takahashi find the prospect so daunting. But you never know... they could as well have their own reasons.

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    Can someone who knows how to skate explain what "This ice doesn’t allow you to jump your Axels on the very edge" actually meant? You cannot take off on a very deep edge because....????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    The story about the ice quality is a bit of a mystery. Everyone was saying on record (at least in English/Russian to international press) that it is great and so on, but then out of blue we heard second-hand reports that Japanese skaters told either Japanese press or someone else that it is awful I don't think I have seen a direct quote and/or source for this info (I am a bit out of the loop here, though, we did search for it then the news broke out but there unable to trace it, maybe someone has managed to do it since the time).
    The ice was great as everyone who arrived earlier said. Then they had a practice for opening ceremony or whatever, put the carpet and they later explained there was some kind of "air" between and the ice strated melting. Possibly, as some people assumed, that the cooling machines were put a little down. After complains they changed it back and the ice became too hard like a glass, until they fix it to normal. The whole ice story is quite a mistery and no serious or official explanations about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post

    Re. Men medallists speaking about Plushenko come back, frankly I could not help thinking that they were being polite rather than earnest in their replies. Hanyu, well, maybe I can understand a bit of trepidation, but I find it hard to believe that the likes of Chan or Takahashi find the prospect so daunting. But you never know... they could as well have their own reasons.
    The Japanese people and FS fans really admire Plushy. He is the most popular non-japanese skater ever. So I'm not surprised on Dai, after OLY 2006, Daisuke Takahashi (end 8th, age-19) said on Japanese TV

    "oh, my god, there was a God,,, I felt amazing aura, he couldn't hide it" etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Can someone who knows how to skate explain what "This ice doesn’t allow you to jump your Axels on the very edge" actually meant? You cannot take off on a very deep edge because....????
    I wasn't skater, so I'm curious too...

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    But who will speak the truth or complain to the media about the ice of future Olympic venue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    After complains they changed it back and the ice became too hard like a glass, until they fix it to normal.
    Very cold ice can be brittle, and it chips away more easily on deep edges, which can make a skater feel less secure or even lose an edge entirely, and makes some jump take offs and landings much more difficult. Figure skating ice is typically kept slightly warmer than "hockey" ice so that it feels (when skating on deep edges, like when landing jumps and on edge jump take offs) a little softer... but it's a fine line, if the ice it kept too warm it melts or won't freeze properly after a resurface, which introduces completely different problems than too cold ice has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahspins View Post
    Very cold ice can be brittle, and it chips away more easily on deep edges, which can make a skater feel less secure or even lose an edge entirely, and makes some jump take offs and landings much more difficult. Figure skating ice is typically kept slightly warmer than "hockey" ice so that it feels (when skating on deep edges, like when landing jumps and on edge jump take offs) a little softer... but it's a fine line, if the ice it kept too warm it melts or won't freeze properly after a resurface, which introduces completely different problems than too cold ice has.
    Can I assume the brittle cold ice has a greater impact on one whose take off edges are truly deep but less so on one whose edges are rather shallow? In other words, the impact is not the same for all skaters--some will suffer more while the other might actually benefit from the situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamanna View Post
    But who will speak the truth or complain to the media about the ice of future Olympic venue?
    Why not?

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    Well, on the Plushy, Hanyu, Daisuke thing - I don't know if this throws any light on it or not, but here are some photos from the shows they did together in Japan this July:

    Plushy with Daisuke (scroll down):

    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...art=120#p71900

    With Hanyu and scroll down for Daisuke:

    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...tart=90#p71629

    Again, I don't know if these are relevant to the discussion or not - only I have a gut feeling that they are; if nothing else you can see that both Hanyu and Daisuke have slightly more receent memories of Plushy personally, than their competitive record alone would show. But you all be the judge of that.

    ETA: Also:

    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...tart=40#p71401

    and:

    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...tart=60#p71461

    "Hanyu was saying that he wears his idol's wristband always, even in the shower or bed."
    Last edited by LRK; 12-13-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Can I assume the brittle cold ice has a greater impact on one whose take off edges are truly deep but less so on one whose edges are rather shallow? In other words, the impact is not the same for all skaters--some will suffer more while the other might actually benefit from the situation?
    No you may not assume that. Too-cold, ultra-hard ice is nearly impossible for any figure skater of any skill level to maneuver on properly, much less jump safely. I once had an early morning practice at a rink where the zamboni decided to go on strike the previous night. Then some gaggle of geniuses tried to make a new top coat to level the ice for morning, with water hoses and hand tools. By 5:00 am, the ice was so hard (almost glass) that the entire coaching staff pretty much cancelled patch (figures, done on very shallow edges with different blades) since nobody could stand up on the stuff--and on the following freestyle session (all purpose or FS blades used) ordered all skaters to refrain from jumping at all--it was that dangerous. Spin attempts resulted in skidding across the ice before falling with a thud. The blade just can't properly edge on ultra-hard ice, and toe picks just chip off the top of the ice surface without holding firmly. That's extreme, and it's obvious the ice in Sochi was nowhere near that condition. But it might have been slightly "off" what some of the skaters typically prefer.

    One of the reasons for doing "test" events of new Olympic facilities with things such as the GPF, is to shake out potential issues of the physical plant and the operators/workers/engineers who make the building work on a daily basis. During the Olympics, the ice at the Sochi facility will have to be adjusted daily, as the venue is alternating between figure skating and short track events. Short track requires harder, colder ice than figure. Even a couple of degrees of ice surface temperature makes a big difference in the feel and workability when you're on skates.
    Last edited by bigsisjiejie; 12-15-2012 at 01:03 AM.

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    My understanding is that as a skater glides on the ice, the blade actually melts the ice for the movement but it immediately refreezes as the blade passes. I imagine ultra cold ice would not melt easily to allow smooth movements and is of course a very different condition for jump take off.

    Remember the special ice at Worlds 2010 in Moscow which seemed to have helped bring out high success rate for jumps once the skaters got used to it? Would it be used for the Sochi Olympics? Evidently it was not used at the GPF.

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