US Men: Nationals and Beyond | Page 3 | Golden Skate

US Men: Nationals and Beyond

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I will not believe for a second that Weir was actually injured; but he has only himself to blame for that since he has a past littered with such incidents

Really? Really? Care to enumerate them?

I guess I don't understand why there is such animosity toward Weir and Lysacek coming back and yet people are falling all over themselves wishing that Plushenko is successful in his comeback! Plushenko is older, has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more physical problems, and it's not clear to me after all his surgeries how he can compete on the international level with success. Time will tell. I tend to have faith that the USFSA tries their best to field a team with the best possibilities and if that includes Weir and Lysacek - so be it! If it doesn't? So be that, too! If Jeremy had skated clean at Nationals this year this conversation would be totally different. I still tend to think that if he can lay down 2 good skates there are only a few men in the world that can beat him. I can't and won't try to predict what the US Men's team will do in Sochii because it's well over a year away. Anything can happen between now and then - anything! I will say that Keegan Messing has never impressed me with his skating and really hasn't done anything to warrant being in the mix. Don't give up on Adam Rippon!! He turned himself around this year. His freeskate was commendable. He screwed up in the short program or this conversation would also be different. Aaron is going to be handed his hat on a platter unless he improves dramatically in his presentation - dramatically! Brown has a chance if he can get his 3A and a quad. He's charismatic and the crowd loves him. He has the presentation skills. At the age of 18, just barely, it's not impossible for him to get those jumps this year. Farris is a wild card IMO. He had a great skate at Nationals. Was it luck or can he be consistent in the future. Dornbush is doomed to be an also-ran. He never quite seems to get it together. And I have no opinion on Miner!!! Maybe a good choreographer and some great music might help. He has the skills.

You have faith in Rippon but not Dornbush, Farris, or Aaron? Seriously? If Max lands his stuff I expect him to do quite well at Worlds. Farris has been skating consistently well for the past two years, his meltdown at Nationals last season was more of the "odd performance out" than his good skate here, if you paid attention to JGP you'd know that, his scores at junior competitions have been very comparable to the international scores of Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush and it's good USFS finally recognized his ability and marked him fairly at Nationals this year. Dornbush is always rewarded with good scores when he skates well, both Nationally and internationally. Sure he's not the most consistent for the time being but he is definitely capable of landing a solid 3axels and 4toes which cannot be said of Rippon or Brown at this point. And Ross has a good choreographer and good music this season and it's made a word of difference. Honestly, I see Aaron, Farris, and Dornbush as our top 3 guys for the next quadrennial, along with maybe Ross if he continues and Jason if he can get his technical up and land it consistently. Chen and Zhou are good too but they won't be taken seriously in seniors until they go through puberty which will take a few years. I think maybe we have to just give some of these guys a chance. Max is an incredible technician and Ricky and Josh are two of the most complete skaters in terms of jumps, artistry, spins, presentation, etc. in the US men's field currently.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
^^^^
Johnny puts more butts in the seats than Josh Farris, even if he skates poorly

When Josh moves up to the senior level he could develop a fan base too, you know. Same for Max Aaron. They just haven't had the experience yet. I think they both already have a lot of fan girls based on their looks anyways.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I think there is a world of difference between skating junior level and then moving up to senior. I do pay attention to JGP but I'm still not very high on Dornbush. And he hasn't been consistent so it's been hard for me to agree that he's a well-rounded skater. Maybe he'll grow into it. Maybe. I think Josh has a very real possibility of being significant in the coming years. He IS a well-rounded skater. I do not care for Max Aaron's style of skating and I truly believe his presentation scores are going to do him in on the international level! Just like I think if Elvis Stojko was skating right now his technical athleticism would not be enough to garner him the success he had under the 6.0 regime! Just my opinion.

The reason I have not given up on Adam Rippon is because he is a very complete skater. I think this year marked a time for him when he had to either decide to keep skating in the blousey tops and to hackneyed and somewhat boring classical pieces or to break out and do something different. I could very well be wrong but I have as good a chance at being right as anybody.

Time will tell.
 

Eislauf

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
The reason I have not given up on Adam Rippon is because he is a very complete skater. I think this year marked a time for him when he had to either decide to keep skating in the blousey tops and to hackneyed and somewhat boring classical pieces or to break out and do something different. I could very well be wrong but I have as good a chance at being right as anybody.

Time will tell.

Good point about Adam. Last year he had Jeremy Abbot's coaches, Sato/Dunjgen, yes? He left them later in 2012 and what a difference! He's skating with more power and dynamism; his costumes are bolder (good-bye somber beige and grey draped chiffon blouse: hello sleek red and black costume with white lightning designs); his music and choreography are more exciting; and, perhaps most important of all, he's having fun out there. Even tho' he didn't medal at Nats this yr, he said after his LP that he'd never had so much fun skating a program.
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I guess I don't understand why there is such animosity toward Weir and Lysacek coming back and yet people are falling all over themselves wishing that Plushenko is successful in his comeback! Plushenko is older, has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more physical problems, and it's not clear to me after all his surgeries how he can compete on the international level with success.

The animosity is probably a result of certain posters not wanting their favorite skaters to have to compete against Weir and/or Lysacek for an spot on the 2014 Olympic Team.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
That's a point I hadn't considered, SkateFan66. As the song says, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

My feeling is always that (1) if someone's not good enough to make the national roster, what does it matter if he gives it a try. (2) if someone is good enough, then he deserves the spot, and we could sure use a guy like that.

Unless the federation arbitrarily puts one of the comeback guys on the national team (which would be dreadful and counterproductive to the federation's goals of, like, medaling at worlds), then presumably he gets there because he outskated other competitors. In which case, as I say, we could sure use a guy like that.

I suspect, alas, it won't come to that. Neither Johnny nor Evan currently shows any evidence of being able to skate at that level. I believe the old phrase is "don't buy a pig in a poke." With both those men, their current skating abilities are in a lockbox that no one has yet opened in full view.
 
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SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
That's a point I hadn't considered, SkateFan66. As the song says, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

My feeling is always that (1) if someone's not good enough to make the national roster, what does it matter if he gives it a try. (2) if someone is good enough, then he deserves the spot, and we could sure use a guy like that.

Unless the federation arbitrarily puts one of the comeback guys on the national team (which would be dreadful and counterproductive to the federation's goals of, like, medaling at worlds), then presumably he gets there because he outskated other competitors. In which case, as I say, we could sure use a guy like that.

I suspect, alas, it won't come to that. Neither Johnny nor Evan currently shows any evidence of being able to skate at that level. I believe the old phrase is "don't buy a pig in a poke." With both those men, their current skating abilities are in a lockbox that no one has yet opened in full view.

The USFSA will send the best of the best to Sochi. Past Olympians will not get a free pass.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I would just like to say I do not care WHO it is coming back, I want to see them EARN it. I don't want to see free passes to two grand prixs. I want to see them earn it.

If a skater, any skater, wants to come back, then they can work on themselves in training, go through the procedures to go to Nationals, and then there earn a place at Championship events/grand prix. If their federation chooses to give them a spot at their grand prix that season, that's their decision. But they should not be submitted for assignment by other federations. That's something they should have to EARN.

I saw Plushenko brought up earlier in this thread. Let's have a look at his comeback, shall we? In 2009 he signalled his intention to come back to the Russian Federation. He did NOT ask for any grand prix events; he was offered the COR host pick because, well, Plushenko. He accepted. He then went to Nationals to earn his place at Europeans and the Olympics. After that, due to a disagreement with his federation, he was suspended for a year. After that suspension, he did NOT ask for any grands prix, but instead went to Nationals and once again earned his spot at Europeans.

That is hugely different to signing a piece of paper and being gift-wrapped two grand prix spots when you've done nothing to earn them or even shown any indication that you can be competitive internationally or even that you are serious about your comeback.
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I would just like to say I do not care WHO it is coming back, I want to see them EARN it. I don't want to see free passes to two grand prixs. I want to see them earn it.

If a skater, any skater, wants to come back, then they can work on themselves in training, go through the procedures to go to Nationals, and then there earn a place at Championship events/grand prix. If their federation chooses to give them a spot at their grand prix that season, that's their decision. But they should not be submitted for assignment by other federations. That's something they should have to EARN.

I saw Plushenko brought up earlier in this thread. Let's have a look at his comeback, shall we? In 2009 he signalled his intention to come back to the Russian Federation. He did NOT ask for any grand prix events; he was offered the COR host pick because, well, Plushenko. He accepted. He then went to Nationals to earn his place at Europeans and the Olympics. After that, due to a disagreement with his federation, he was suspended for a year. After that suspension, he did NOT ask for any grands prix, but instead went to Nationals and once again earned his spot at Europeans.

That is hugely different to signing a piece of paper and being gift-wrapped two grand prix spots when you've done nothing to earn them or even shown any indication that you can be competitive internationally or even that you are serious about your comeback.

The last I will say on this subject, per ISU rules, skaters who have had top finishes at the ISU World Championships EARN a right to use the comeback rule to get two GP assignments. (not all skaters who make a comeback have EARNED the right to use the comeback provision) This comeback rule only applies to the GP, and has no affect on a skater earning a spot for Europeans, 4CC, or the World Championships.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
When Josh moves up to the senior level he could develop a fan base too, you know. Same for Max Aaron. They just haven't had the experience yet. I think they both already have a lot of fan girls based on their looks anyways.

Just saying, but Jason already has a fan club, "The Brownies," who showed up in matching T Shirts at US Nats.

Really, one of these returning champions is a no-brainer as a GP host pick for a non-US fed.

1. People have heard of them, and it may boost the box office.

2. They are unlikely to beat the local Fed's champions, which works nicely too.

So as long at the ISU has rules that allow these guys to Earn the right to reincarnate, federations will pick them as a host pick.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
The animosity is probably a result of certain posters not wanting their favorite skaters to have to compete against Weir and/or Lysacek for an spot on the 2014 Olympic Team.

Well......I guess if their favorite skaters are as good as certain posters think they are.....then it shouldn't matter who they compete against! Let the best man/men win!
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Well......I guess if their favorite skaters are as good as certain posters think they are.....then it shouldn't matter who they compete against! Let the best man/men win!

I agree. With all the talk about how great their favorite skaters are, and how bad all the other skaters are, then they should not be concerned. ;-)
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The animosity is probably a result of certain posters not wanting their favorite skaters to have to compete against Weir and/or Lysacek for an spot on the 2014 Olympic Team.

As if anyone is deluded enough to think Weir has a remote chance of the U.S Olympic team. :laugh: That is as hilarious as discussing the chances of Evan winning a medal at the Sochi Olympics.

As for the reference to Plushenkos comeback:

1. Regardless of age, Plushenko is 10000000x more competitive still than Weir is at this point. He won Europeans last year keep in mind, while Weir isnt even good enough anymore to medal at B internationals. He also has more chance to be competitive than Lysacek, although both have very poor odds of being top 5 at the World level at this point.

2. Plushenko and his comeback have received alot of negative opinions too. Has the person who referenced him not seen the threads about Pliushenko on this forum of late.

3. Plushenko is stil the only decent Russian skater there is, so I am sure the Russians are thrilled to have him back, in any form.
 
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