US Men: Nationals and Beyond

[pangtongfan]

The important thing for the U.S now is to have their middle aged and young guys who can all be around for 2018 start to establish themselves. Meaning nobody older than Miner and Rippon already are. The last thing they should do is even consider throwing an ounce of support to oldies like Lysacek and Abbott next year. Better to send a skater who is trying to establish himself for the 2015-2018 quad to possibly finish 7th or 8th, then send a skater who is retiring like Lysacek or Abbott to finish 9th or 10th. I dont think the U.S has any medal hopes whatsoever for Sochi no matter who makes the team, but they can start to set themselves up for post Sochi where there will surely be a ton of retirements.

[karne]

I tend to agree with that. Actually, I would like to see the USFSA not give Weir and Lysacek GPs next year - or only one, none of this two crap. They couldn't even be bothered showing up to Nationals. Why put them above the younger guys who did, and did well?

[SkateFan66]

I would like to see the USFSA not give Weir and Lysacek GPs next year - or only one, none of this two crap. They couldn't even be bothered showing up to Nationals. Why put them above the younger guys who did, and did well?

Maybe you missed it, but Lysacek "did not bother to show up for Nationals" because he had surgery in late November, and he was not cleared to start on ice training until three weeks before Nationals. Why would Lysacek show up and compete at Nationals if he was not back 100% after his surgery?

The USFSA did not "give" Weir two GP assignments last season....he earned them. (You might want to do a little research...its called the "comeback skater rule.")

As far as GP next season, I think one thing is certain...if Lysacek is healthy, he WILL BE assigned to Skate America. You ask, "why put Lysacek above the younger guys?" Because it will be the Olympic season, and Lysacek is the reigning Olympic Champion. Lysacek's attempt to defend his OGM WILL generate media interest.

Wishing Lysacek a complete recovery. Based upon Lori Nichol's comments at the Hall of Fame reception, Lysacek was skating better than ever prior to his injury.

[karne]

I will correct myself there. Lysacek did indeed have surgery (I forgot), so he did not chicken out of Nationals. I don't think he would have won though.

I will not believe for a second that Weir was actually injured; but he has only himself to blame for that since he has a past littered with such incidents.

Either way I don't think either of them will be feeling too comfortable after what they saw at Nationals - young men with actual artistry, with quads and good jumps, strong and determined and putting on a good show.

Personally, I despise the comeback skater rule. Weir did not earn his two spots, he was handed them, and he wasted them when they could have gone elsewhere. If a skater wants to come back, they can do it the proper way. If they want a GP, then their federation may choose to give them a host pick.

Lysacek may be Olympic Champion, but it was a tenuous gold to begin with. He will be even further down the rankings now. He's not even in contention for a medal at Sochi.

[SkateFan66]

If a skater wants to come back, they can do it the proper way. If they want a GP, then their federation may choose to give them a host pick.

If a skater qualifies for two GP assignments per the ISU comeback rule, then they are doing it the "proper way." (last I checked, not ALL federations hosted GP events; therefore, not ALL federations can hand out host picks)

[silverlake22]

The important thing for the U.S now is to have their middle aged and young guys who can all be around for 2018 start to establish themselves. Meaning nobody older than Miner and Rippon already are. The last thing they should do is even consider throwing an ounce of support to oldies like Lysacek and Abbott next year. Better to send a skater who is trying to establish himself for the 2015-2018 quad to possibly finish 7th or 8th, then send a skater who is retiring like Lysacek or Abbott to finish 9th or 10th. I dont think the U.S has any medal hopes whatsoever for Sochi no matter who makes the team, but they can start to set themselves up for post Sochi where there will surely be a ton of retirements.

I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.

[SkateFan66]

I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.

Abbott, Rippon and Dornbush got two GP events based on their ISU ranking, in other words they earned it. Aaron and Keegan did not get SA host picks because they finished behind Armin and Razzano at 2012 nationals. However, both Aaron and Keegan received Senior B assignments. Aaron took advantage of the Senior Bs and made great strides this year. Unfortunately, Keegan regressed after his Senior Bs. However, on a positive note, Alexander Johnson had a great showing at nationals, and has been awarded with a Senior B.

Jason Brown was kept in JGP because he had no tripple axel. No amount af artestry can make up for a lack of both a quad and tripple axel at the senior GP level. IMO, Farris benefited from competing in JGP this year. At most, he would have received one senior GP spot based on his ISU ranking (plus he was low on the SA host pick pecking order due to his poor placement at 2012 nationals) By competing in the JGP, he was able to skate before international judges at three competitions, and he gained valuable ISU ranking points. He was also able to gain confidence with solid finishes in all his JGP events. If he had skated at on the senior GP, he probably would have, at best, placed mid-pack.

[karne]

If a skater qualifies for two GP assignments per the ISU comeback rule, then they are doing it the "proper way." (last I checked, not ALL federations hosted GP events; therefore, not ALL federations can hand out host picks)

No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.

[SkateFan66]

No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.

GP assignments are governed by ISU rules. The ISU awards skaters that have EARNED high placement at Worlds with an opportunity to return to the GP after taking time off from competing. But maybe the ISU will have a change of heart in the next few years and stop giving out the 'handouts' to the GP. Just think how 'unfair' it would be if, in ten years, a current novice skater was not given a GP assignment because Chan, Hanyu, Brown, Aaron, or Farris decided that they wanted to return to competition. ;-)

[chuckm]

No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.

GP spots were not GIVEN to Weir. Two federations INVITED him.

[silverlake22]

Abbott, Rippon and Dornbush got two GP events based on their ISU ranking, in other words they earned it. Aaron and Keegan did not get SA host picks because they finished behind Armin and Razzano at 2012 nationals. However, both Aaron and Keegan received Senior B assignments. Aaron took advantage of the Senior Bs and made great strides this year. Unfortunately, Keegan regressed after his Senior Bs. However, on a positive note, Alexander Johnson had a great showing at nationals, and has been awarded with a Senior B.

Jason Brown was kept in JGP because he had no tripple axel. No amount af artestry can make up for a lack of both a quad and tripple axel at the senior GP level. IMO, Farris benefited from competing in JGP this year. At most, he would have received one senior GP spot based on his ISU ranking (plus he was low on the SA host pick pecking order due to his poor placement at 2012 nationals) By competing in the JGP, he was able to skate before international judges at three competitions, and he gained valuable ISU ranking points. He was also able to gain confidence with solid finishes in all his JGP events. If he had skated at on the senior GP, he probably would have, at best, placed mid-pack.

I realize all this. And like I said, in the case of Farris, Aaron, and Brown, competing on JGP/Senior B circuit ended up working out well for them this season, so there is a silver lining to it all. However, Brown and Farris both could have had a guaranteed senior GP event this season had they chosen to move up, and if they had, it likely would have meant Rippon and/or Dornbush would have only gotten 1 assignment instead of 2. So while those guys did earn their events, they benefited from Yan, Farris, and Brown - the top 3 junior men, all staying on the JGP another season. I think Yan and Farris could have maybe gotten 2 GPs had they moved up, too, given the strength of their SB and WS. As for Messing and Aaron, senior Bs give them WS points, but no SB, so that's why they haven't gotten GP events yet. If Senior B events counted for an ISU SB, Aaron and maybe even Messing likely would have gotten a GP invite this season, or at least, they'd deserve to. I wonder if the ISU will change the SB rule and count senior B events, I wish they would, it would make the GP selection more open and less biased I would think.

[noskates]

I will not believe for a second that Weir was actually injured; but he has only himself to blame for that since he has a past littered with such incidents

Really? Really? Care to enumerate them?

I guess I don't understand why there is such animosity toward Weir and Lysacek coming back and yet people are falling all over themselves wishing that Plushenko is successful in his comeback! Plushenko is older, has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more physical problems, and it's not clear to me after all his surgeries how he can compete on the international level with success. Time will tell. I tend to have faith that the USFSA tries their best to field a team with the best possibilities and if that includes Weir and Lysacek - so be it! If it doesn't? So be that, too! If Jeremy had skated clean at Nationals this year this conversation would be totally different. I still tend to think that if he can lay down 2 good skates there are only a few men in the world that can beat him. I can't and won't try to predict what the US Men's team will do in Sochii because it's well over a year away. Anything can happen between now and then - anything! I will say that Keegan Messing has never impressed me with his skating and really hasn't done anything to warrant being in the mix. Don't give up on Adam Rippon!! He turned himself around this year. His freeskate was commendable. He screwed up in the short program or this conversation would also be different. Aaron is going to be handed his hat on a platter unless he improves dramatically in his presentation - dramatically! Brown has a chance if he can get his 3A and a quad. He's charismatic and the crowd loves him. He has the presentation skills. At the age of 18, just barely, it's not impossible for him to get those jumps this year. Farris is a wild card IMO. He had a great skate at Nationals. Was it luck or can he be consistent in the future. Dornbush is doomed to be an also-ran. He never quite seems to get it together. And I have no opinion on Miner!!! Maybe a good choreographer and some great music might help. He has the skills.

[Jaana]

I will correct myself there. Lysacek did indeed have surgery (I forgot), so he did not chicken out of Nationals. I don't think he would have won though.

Maybe not, but who cares, LOL. Second place would have been enough to compete at Worlds. As Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics, he was not the US champion... instead he peaked at the right time in both cases.

[pangtongfan]

Maybe not, but who cares, LOL. Second place would have been enough to compete at Worlds. As Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics, he was not the US champion... instead he peaked at the right time in both cases.

Stop living in the past. There is more chance of Tonya Harding becoming the first female president than Lysacek ever winning a World title again.

[pangtongfan]

I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.

Yes the USFSA clearly is misguides in their priorities. To not given many of those guys any GP assignments and to give Johnny freaking Weir 2 grand prix assignments is unbelievable. They need to let go of the past and move forward if they are going to get anywhere in the next few years.