Miki Ando and Joannie Rochette | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Miki Ando and Joannie Rochette

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
That still wouldn't match Witt's accomplishments (4 WTs, 2 OGMs). Yes, Witt's technical level is behind that of current top ladies but YuNa's will be one day as well.

Please, nobody considers Witt the best ever today, nor Henjie who has an even better medal haul than Witt. The best ever to most people is one of Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, Yu Na Kim or Michelle Kwan. The reason being the ladies with the most medals like Henjie, Witt, Heiss, dont have the skating standard to be considered best ever, even with their medal hauls. However Kim if she wins the 2013 Worlds and 2014 Olympics would have both an exceptional technical and artistic skating standard, and a medal record which easily beats no Olympic Golds Kwan and crushes Ito and Lynn, so there could be no doubt really.

Regarding Witt it isnt just her technical standard being lower than skaters today. Her technical standard in the second half of her amateur career when she was still dominant was far below many ladies of her OWN era like Thomas, Ito, Manley, Kadavy or Leistner on a good day. She is not a great artistic skater either really, she had ugly and bad positions, and her basic skating was nothing exceptional. She won so much since she was an amazing competitor, a great star, great at theatrics on the ice, and she deliever all she could when it mattered most. However even in her own era she is regarded as the greatest competitor, not even the best skater. That is her biggest legacy, perhaps the strongest ladies competitor ever, and a great star who brought alot of interest to the sport, but not a phenomenal skater.
 
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cinnamon

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Miki is scheduled for Japanese nationals, but I think she will miss this season out and will make a decision in the spring of next year for Sochi.
I think Miki is not eligible for this Nationals. Actually her name is not in the entries.
 

merleice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Miki said she will be back on the ice next season when she announced her withdrawal from the GP series. Hopefully she'll be able to sort out the coaching arrangement and come back next year.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Thanks to moderators for changing the spelling of Rochette's name on the title of this thread!
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Miki said she will be back on the ice next season when she announced her withdrawal from the GP series. Hopefully she'll be able to sort out the coaching arrangement and come back next year.

If she's aiming for the Olympics podium, next season is a very late time to stage a come-back.
 
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Miki sounded like she just wanted to finish her career on high note, in a national event i.e., Japanese Nationals and Japan Open, not in an international stage. So I gathered that olympic medal might not be in her mind.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
If she's aiming for the Olympics podium, next season is a very late time to stage a come-back.
She said that all she wants is to skate a last good program for her fans, she never talked about medals or placements!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Well that hasnt happened and clearly isnt going to happen with the so called "new crop" which at this point pretty much stink, so forget that idea. Best now they improve their skating and get it up to the standard they are atleast ready to lead post Sochi when nearly all the veterans likely retire. Better legend Kim, legend Asada, and Wagner (sort of new), battling it out, then Kostner with 80s jump content, 30 year old Suzuki, and semi retired 2004 Worlds contender Ando. Atleast be happy with the lesser of the 2 evils, since the latter is what you will be left with if Kim, Asada, and possibly Rochette dont return, not what you are hoping for with 16 year olds on top. None of Kim, Asada, Wagner, or even Suzuki would be in their 3rd Olympics btw.

You are a horror show.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Please, nobody considers Witt the best ever today, nor Henjie who has an even better medal haul than Witt. The best ever to most people is one of Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, Yu Na Kim or Michelle Kwan. The reason being the ladies with the most medals like Henjie, Witt, Heiss, dont have the skating standard to be considered best ever, even with their medal hauls. However Kim if she wins the 2013 Worlds and 2014 Olympics would have both an exceptional technical and artistic skating standard, and a medal record which easily beats no Olympic Golds Kwan and crushes Ito and Lynn, so there could be no doubt really.

Regarding Witt it isnt just her technical standard being lower than skaters today. Her technical standard in the second half of her amateur career when she was still dominant was far below many ladies of her OWN era like Thomas, Ito, Manley, Kadavy or Leistner on a good day. She is not a great artistic skater either really, she had ugly and bad positions, and her basic skating was nothing exceptional. She won so much since she was an amazing competitor, a great star, great at theatrics on the ice, and she deliever all she could when it mattered most. However even in her own era she is regarded as the greatest competitor, not even the best skater. That is her biggest legacy, perhaps the strongest ladies competitor ever, and a great star who brought alot of interest to the sport, but not a phenomenal skater.
You can't really compare someone like Carol Heiss with the skaters of today it was a different time and sport. However how good would Heiss have been if she had been born thirty years later? This is a woman who won 5 straight World championships something even Michelle Kwan didn't accomplish. That says something about how good she was and might have been in the modern era.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
You can't really compare someone like Carol Heiss with the skaters of today it was a different time and sport. However how good would Heiss have been if she had been born thirty years later? This is a woman who won 5 straight World championships something even Michelle Kwan didn't accomplish. That says something about how good she was and might have been in the modern era.

While all this is valid and true, I much prefer the skating of someone like Tenley Albright even from that era than Heiss. She won less medals and titles than Heiss (although both dominated their respective eras for the most part, with their careers crossing briefly, and the older Tenley usually winning as expected) but her skating was far more pleasing to watch of the two.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
But Michelle did win 5 golds and 3 silvers and 1 bronze at Worlds; Heiss 5 golds and one silver.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Peggy Fleming got a big boost in popularity (over Carol Heiss, for instance) because she was the first U.S. skater of the television age.

Michelle is in the same position. She is the first popular U.S. lady of the YouTube era. All of her greatest hits are available at the click of a mouse, and they all have hundreds of thousands of views.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
But Michelle did win 5 golds and 3 silvers at Worlds; Heiss 5 golds and one silver.

Heiss has Olympic Gold and silver though so her World/Olympic record is easily better than Michelle. Plus she won 5 Worlds in a row, Michelle only won 2 Worlds in a row ONCE. However I easily consider Michelle a better skater than Heiss still, which just shows my point, it isnt all about medals sometimes. However Kim with a 2nd Olympic and 2nd World would really have it all- an impeccable historic resume, one of the highest technical standards of skating of all time (probably only Midori Ito was higher), a very high artistic level of skating, longevity, consistency, and impact on the sport.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Peggy Fleming got a big boost in popularity (over Carol Heiss, for instance) because she was the first U.S. skater of the television age.

Michelle is in the same position. She is the first popular U.S. lady of the YouTube era. All of her greatest hits are available at the click of a mouse, and they all have hundreds of thousands of views.

Youtube started in 2005 and was popular by mid-2006, after Kwan's success. While it's true all her greatest hits are available, Youtube means that everyone in the television age has their skates on that domain.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
It's hard to compare skaters from different eras technically. But I do agree with the the point about Witt not being technically the best of her own era. It was indeed her determination and coolness under pressure that made her the best, not the advanced quality of her jumps. Everyone crumbled before her laserlike determination. As a result, she looks great on paper, with an amazing record--the only postwar singles lady to win two Olympic gold medals so far. But she's not someone I enjoy going back to see on YouTube.

Someone like YuNa really is technically ahead of her time, as was Midori Ito. There's a wonderful video of Ito and Kurt Browning doing simultaneous jumps, and Ito jumps just about as high as Browning. It's breathtaking. I'm not sure anyone's caught up with her yet, even twenty years later. Maybe YuNa, but that's about it.

This doesn't mean that everyone's going to find Ito more enjoyable to watch than her contemporary, Kristi Yamaguchi, or even more moving to watch than Janet Lynn, who was several skating generations earlier. Some skaters just have a bewitching quality, which they retain because of their silky technique and musicality, and Lynn is one of them. I've noticed that many people (not just me!) still go back and watch her with interest and even awe, despite the fact that forty years have passed. I suspect from viewing YouTube photos that had Laurence Owen survived to dominate her Olympic cycle, she too would have had that quality. Toller Cranston once listed Janet Lynn and Laurence Owen as his two favorite lady skaters.

Of course I count Michelle in that group of forever-interesting skaters. Various of you may or may not agree with me. I suspect that in future generations, we will feel that way about YuNa. (And, I'm hoping, about Mao as well.)
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
It's hard to compare skaters from different eras technically. But I do agree with the the point about Witt not being technically the best of her own era. It was indeed her determination and coolness under pressure that made her the best, not the advanced quality of her jumps. Everyone crumbled before her laserlike determination. As a result, she looks great on paper, with an amazing record--the only postwar singles lady to win two Olympic gold medals so far. But she's not someone I enjoy going back to see on YouTube.

Someone like YuNa really is technically ahead of her time, as was Midori Ito. There's a wonderful video of Ito and Kurt Browning doing simultaneous jumps, and Ito jumps just about as high as Browning. It's breathtaking. I'm not sure anyone's caught up with her yet, even twenty years later. Maybe YuNa, but that's about it.

This doesn't mean that everyone's going to find Ito more enjoyable to watch than her contemporary, Kristi Yamaguchi, or even more moving to watch than Janet Lynn, who was several skating generations earlier. Some skaters just have a bewitching quality, which they retain because of their silky technique and musicality, and Lynn is one of them. I've noticed that many people (not just me!) still go back and watch her with interest and even awe, despite the fact that forty years have passed. I suspect from viewing YouTube photos that had Laurence Owen survived to dominate her Olympic cycle, she too would have had that quality. Toller Cranston once listed Janet Lynn and Laurence Owen as his two favorite lady skaters.

Of course I count Michelle in that group of forever-interesting skaters. Various of you may or may not agree with me. I suspect that in future generations, we will feel that way about YuNa. (And, I'm hoping, about Mao as well.)

Tremendous post, excellent assessment all around!
 
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