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Thread: Kostner at Golden Spin of Zagreb (vids)

  1. #61
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Prettykeys: How did you manage to find an even pretty avatar than your last one?
    She's one of those rare individuals who seem to get prettier with the passage of time...

  2. #62
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    I really liked the performance. The program is getting better. Also, I felt that she skated faster today and put more transitions in the program.

    To be honest, the haters are so annoying, they NEVER give a break. I am impressed by how they always have something negative to say about Carolina. They promote the skaters that they like by being heavily negative and critical to Carolina.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    A title isn't won on the strength of a long program alone. In fact, I'd argue titles these days are more dependent on performance in the short program than ever. If Carolina does 3T+2T and a 3Lo in the SP like she did at this national competition, she'll be lucky to beat Yuna with this kind of performance.
    Agree. Especially if Kim nails her SP, Carolina will need a lot of luck to beat Yuna for the title.

    Anyway, assuming all girls do their planned layout perfectly and Asada has no 3A.

    After the SP,
    1. Kim. Should have the highest TES. TR should also be the highest. SS/CH/IN/PE should be behind Kostner.
    2. Kostner. Second highest TES due to the strength of her jumps and her steps. Should have highest PCS.
    3. Asada. Should get high enough TES to be within striking distance. Lowest PCS of the 3, except TR, which should be higher than Kostner.

    LP.
    If all 3 skate clean 6 triples LP, same order as the short program. Whoever skates a clean LP and the other two make mistake, that girl will win.

    I don't think Kim or Asada are sitting there, thinking they can just show up and get gold like V/T. They will need to be perfect if Kostner is skating like this. If all 3 girls are clean, this might be the best World ever.

    None of the Russian girls will come close. Poor Akiko, will not come close to medal. And someone like Ashley shouldn't be near the podium anyway.

    Someone like Patrick Chan, Dai, D/W, V/M, and even P/B regularly get 9+ in PCS, especially for Patrick Chan in SS/CH/IN. Then Kostner should always get 9+ for her CH/IN/SS. There's no reason why she only sometimes crack 8 for SS/CH/IN. Lori gives Kostner better programs than she does to Patrick, and she interprets the music better than he does, too. Do the dancers have better skill, better programs than Kostner to warrant their 9+ components? I don't think so.
    Last edited by FlattFan; 12-22-2012 at 04:49 PM.

  4. #64
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    To be honest... For me, talking about PC's...

    Skating Skills: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Transitions: Yuna > Asada > Carolina
    Choreography: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Interpretation: Carolina > Asada > Yuna

    Performance/Execution is difficult to say, since it will depend on the performance of each one, but, considering that the three skate clean, I think the judges are gonna to put Yuna > Asada > Carolina

    Talking about TES. If Carolina land the seven triples, she will be first in the TES. But, Kim also will be very close, because Kim can recieve very high GOEs for her elements (as Carolina and Mao can get too). Carolina gets huge GOE for jumps and steps and Asada recieves massive GOE for spins, steps and spirals.

    Talking about jumps overrall is very complicated, because there are five types of jumps. I would rank the three, in terms of jumps:

    Lutz: Yuna > Carolina > Asada (Since Asada does not have a proper Lutz)
    Flip: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Loop: Carolina > Asada > Yuna (Kim has no Loop)
    Salchow: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Toeloop: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Axel: Yuna > Asada > Carolina

    In terms of spins, Asada has slightly better spins than Yuna and both of them spin better than Carolina. I would rank Asada > Kim > Carolina

    In terms of steps, Carolina > Asada > Kim.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    To be honest... For me, talking about PC's...

    Skating Skills: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Transitions: Yuna > Asada > Carolina
    Choreography: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Interpretation: Carolina > Asada > Yuna

    Performance/Execution is difficult to say, since it will depend on the performance of each one, but, considering that the three skate clean, I think the judges are gonna to put Yuna > Asada > Carolina

    Talking about TES. If Carolina land the seven triples, she will be first in the TES. But, Kim also will be very close, because Kim can recieve very high GOEs for her elements (as Carolina and Mao can get too). Carolina gets huge GOE for jumps and steps and Asada recieves massive GOE for spins, steps and spirals.

    Talking about jumps overrall is very complicated, because there are five types of jumps. I would rank the three, in terms of jumps:

    Lutz: Yuna > Carolina > Asada (Since Asada does not have a proper Lutz)
    Flip: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Loop: Carolina > Asada > Yuna (Kim has no Loop)
    Salchow: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Toeloop: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Axel: Yuna > Asada > Carolina

    In terms of spins, Asada has slightly better spins than Yuna and both of them spin better than Carolina. I would rank Asada > Kim > Carolina

    In terms of steps, Carolina > Asada > Kim.
    Agreed.
    However on the axel I would have Mao first, Carolina second, Yu Na third. If these are the top 3 at worlds it would be just like 2008 again.

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    When asked about Yuna, Carolina said "She is so good that I don't even consider her as a rival" I think we will discover just at Worlds in case they both skate at their fullest potential

  7. #67
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    mateus, I agree with most of your post #64. Some of the things I'd change, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    Choreography: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Interpretation: Carolina > Asada > Yuna
    On Choreo and Interpretation, I'd say they might be ranked similarly, considering both SP's and LP's. Same with P/E if they all skate cleanly. So Caro = Mao = YuNa

    TES: If Carolina lands 7 triples, they will not put 6-triple YuNa or Mao above her. And really, it would be wrong to.

    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    Flip: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Flip: Caro = YuNa > Mao
    2Axel: All about the same

    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    In terms of steps, Carolina > Asada > Kim.
    Steps: Caro = Mao > YuNa (YuNa can be a little stiff sometimes in her steps, not quite as fluid as the other two even if hers are still very good.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    To be honest... For me, talking about PC's...

    Skating Skills: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Transitions: Yuna > Asada > Carolina
    Choreography: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Interpretation: Carolina > Asada > Yuna

    Performance/Execution is difficult to say, since it will depend on the performance of each one, but, considering that the three skate clean, I think the judges are gonna to put Yuna > Asada > Carolina
    Agree with you on all points except P/E. I feel Caro > Yuna > Asada if they all skate clean. Caro has more interesting programs, and her LP ends with a spectacular steps follow by a 3Sal. That is performance. She should get the highest P/E.
    Mao is usually stoic, but her Swan LP should change some of that. I think Yuna > Mao in the SP, but Mao > Yuna in the LP for P/E.

    Talking about TES. If Carolina land the seven triples, she will be first in the TES. But, Kim also will be very close, because Kim can recieve very high GOEs for her elements (as Carolina and Mao can get too). Carolina gets huge GOE for jumps and steps and Asada recieves massive GOE for spins, steps and spirals.
    Agree, if Caro has 7 triples, and other girls have 6, she should win.

    Lutz: Yuna > Carolina > Asada (Since Asada does not have a proper Lutz)
    Flip: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Loop: Carolina > Asada > Yuna (Kim has no Loop)
    Salchow: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Toeloop: Carolina > Yuna > Asada
    Axel: Yuna > Asada > Carolina
    Agree but the Loop and Axel.
    Mao's loop at her best should be > Carolina.
    Mao's 2A should be better than Yuna > Carolina. Only because Caro rarely puts any steps in front of her 2A. As for the jump itself and the exit, she's equally good compare to the other two.


    In terms of steps, Carolina > Asada > Kim.
    Agree. Asada sometimes come close, but her steps generally is a level below. Asada never got a level 4 when it was harder to get a level 4.

  9. #69
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Mao's loop at her best should be > Carolina.
    I don't know about that. I think the best Carolina 3Lo was one of the best I'd seen from a lady, ever. It was spectacularly high. I can't look for the performance/clip right now, but if no one does it later tonight I will dig it up and post it.

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    Here's one of Mao's best
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...1LChDlBc#t=97s

    Here are some of Caro's best. Good, clean, but her position were a bit tilted. That's my reason for picking Mao's over Caro's.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...1LChDlBc#t=97s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tanpTYTY#t=71s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IutFx...tailpage#t=92s

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    No need to skate then... or see how they actually do.
    When is the last time Carolina did 7 triples? I though Yuna's 3Flip especially her 3F3T is magnificent (Great height, distance, flow and power) so is her 2A+3T, certainly one of the best in the biz.

    I disagree with interpretation and performance/execution and would have placed Yuna first, since when I have always felt it is Yuna out of the three who has consistently displayed best versatility, diversity, emotional investment and musical range to extrapolate essences of the music the best. She is also way more expressive with her entire body than the other two, including reflecting fairly accurately varied pace of the music, the highs and the lows as appropriate. While Carol has learned to control her speed and pacing in her skate, it does improve her musicality but she has only been doing this recently and still lack in range. Mao could benefit from listen to the music a bit more and do some research into the rich history and background of her programs, the composer, the meaning of her piece to show respect to the material instead of just using it as pleasant background music to her light happy fun version of what ever the music is, which she has seems to have pigeonholed herself into.

    Choreography wise, I found Kostner's and Mao's LP tends to be half empty (I blame this on Lori though, who is sure COP smart, but sacrifice alot of the artistry she could have included), only the latter part focuses almost entirely on step sequences for a climatic finish hoping judges will forget about the void of the rest of the program and finish on a high (Miki Ando/Morozov effect). It ends up with jarring piece of work where the skaters forget to emote half of the time with only the slightest music references while visibly focuses on getting the jumps out of the way (usually take a while to set up) for all that COP number crunching, before settle down and do the step sequences and a big wow finish.

    Kostner is a classical skater within limited range, she mesh it with it well, but there's virtually nothing unique about her Bolero that stand out from her other European classic pieces. The most interesting part of her choreography consist of near stationary poses, similar to her Shostakovitch program last year with the same hip wiggling choreography stare into the crowd as she is some flirtatious Goddess they should be in complete awe which I suppose they want to make it into a Carolina trademark a la Witt. But it ends up just feel like she has become a parody of herself, where's the substance, purpose or meaning in her performance, and how is that different from a well oiled performed routine. Was her interpretation anything to do with the music was written about? The historical setting? Composer's intention? What's the concept can you identify behind the program? If you turn the music off and show it to another person, can they understand what she is trying to express and guess the music, can they clap to the beat?

    Don't get me wrong, she is a very high quality skater, undoubtedly one of the best, but watching her skating is sometimes like drinking water, not the tap kind obviously. But instead of gurgled on it and trying to swallow because you tell yourself is good for you, I can now actually seep it quietly, pleasantly with the 6 triples. But I still prefer variety of beverages, hot and cold, sometimes a finewine of different vintages, different grapes from different vineyard, a little cocktail here and there for variety, and on occasion sparkling soda pop with lots of ice and twist of lemon every now and again through out the season.. I get that more often with Yuna than with the 2 others, for that I am grateful.
    Last edited by os168; 12-22-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post


    No need to skate then... or see how they actually do.
    When is the last time Carolina did 7 triples? I though Yuna's 3Flip especially her 3F3T is magnificent (Great height, distance, flow and power) so is her 2A+3T, certainly one of the best in the biz.

    I disagree with interpretation and performance/execution and would have placed Yuna first, since when I have always felt it is Yuna out of the three who has consistently displayed best versatility, diversity, emotional investment and musical range to extrapolate essences of the music the best. She is also way more expressive with her entire body than the other two, including reflecting fairly accurately varied pace of the music, the highs and the lows as appropriate. While Carol has learned to control her speed and pacing in her skate, it does improve her musicality but she has only been doing this recently and still lack in range. Mao could benefit from listen to the music a bit more and do some research into the rich history and background of her programs, the composer, the meaning of her piece to show respect to the material instead of just using it as pleasant background music to her light happy fun version of what ever the music is, which she has seems to have pigeonholed herself into.

    Choreography wise, I found Kostner's and Mao's LP tends to be half empty (I blame this on Lori though, who is sure COP smart, but sacrifice alot of the artistry she could have included), only the latter part focuses almost entirely on step sequences for a climatic finish hoping judges will forget about the void of the rest of the program and finish on a high (Miki Ando/Morozov effect). It ends up with jarring piece of work where the skaters forget to emote half of the time with only the slightest music references while visibly focuses on getting the jumps out of the way (usually take a while to set up) for all that COP number crunching, before settle down and do the step sequences and a big wow finish.

    Kostner is a classical skater within limited range, she mesh it with it well, but there's virtually nothing unique about her Bolero that stand out from her other European classic pieces. The most interesting part of her choreography consist of near stationary poses, similar to her Shostakovitch program last year with the same hip wiggling choreography stare into the crowd as she is some flirtatious Goddess they should be in complete awe which I suppose they want to make it into a Carolina trademark a la Witt. But it ends up just feel like she has become a parody of herself, where's the substance, purpose or meaning in her performance, and how is that different from a well oiled performed routine. Was her interpretation anything to do with the music was written about? The historical setting? Composer's intention? What's the concept can you identify behind the program? If you turn the music off and show it to another person, can they understand what she is trying to express and guess the music, can they clap to the beat?

    Don't get me wrong, she is a very high quality skater, undoubtedly one of the best, but watching her skating is sometimes like drinking water, not the tap kind obviously. But instead of gurgled on it and trying to swallow because you tell yourself is good for you, I can now actually seep it quietly, pleasantly with the 6 triples. But I still prefer variety of beverages, hot and cold, sometimes a finewine of different vintages, different grapes from different vineyard, a little cocktail here and there for variety, and on occasion sparkling soda pop with lots of ice and twist of lemon every now and again through out the season.. I get that more often with Yuna than with the 2 others, for that I am grateful.
    Mao, Yuna and Carolina deserve to be the top 3 and they all have totally different unique qualitites. In the end it's a matter of taste.

  13. #73
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    Aww.. I like this thread!
    For me,

    PCS
    Skating Skills: Caro > Yuna > Mao
    Transitions: Yuna > Mao= Caro
    Choreography: Yuna > Caro > Mao
    Interpretation: Yuna > Caro > Mao
    Performance/Execution Yuna > Mao >= Caro
    (CH, IE, PE are very subjective )

    TES
    -Jumps
    Lutz: Yuna > Caro > Mao
    Flip: Yuna = Caro > Mao
    Loop: Caro > Mao > Yuna
    Salchow: Caro > Yuna > Mao
    Toeloop: Yuna = Caro > Mao (Yuna doesn't do solo 3T, it is difficult to compare)
    Axel: Yuna > Mao > Caro (Yuna often puts some transitions-ina, eagle, spirals- into axel, the height and distance is really great. Mao has great axel, but more pre-rotation than Yuna)

    -Spins : Mao >= Yuna > Caro (Mao's positions are gorgeous, but Yuna has more speed than Mao except bielman)
    -Steps : Caro = Mao > Yuna (Caro and Mao have equally great steps, but I prefer Caro)


    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Choreography wise, I found Kostner's and Mao's LP tends to be half empty (I blame this on Lori though, who is sure COP smart, but sacrifice alot of the artistry she could have included), only the latter part focuses almost entirely on step sequences for a climatic finish hoping judges will forget about the void of the rest of the program and finish on a high (Miki Ando/Morozov effect). It ends up with jarring piece of work where the skaters forget to emote half of the time with only the slightest music references while visibly focuses on getting the jumps out of the way (usually take a while to set up) for all that COP number crunching, before settle down and do the step sequences and a big wow finish.
    I have to agree with this.
    Last edited by naan; 12-22-2012 at 08:27 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    If Caro skates like this again in Canada, both Mao and Yuna will need to have the skate of their life to beat her. She's the world champion with world champion bonus and she needs to get bigger bonus for her mastering of all type of triples.

    I see some of Yuna fans aren't so happy. .
    Heh. I'm very happy that CaroK skated like a World Champ here.

    But I haven't seen CaroK bring her A-game to big comps and do everything perfectly recently.

    Also you may be right CaroK has the WC bonus, but Yuna is the reigning Olympic Champion and still the holder of the WR scores in SP, LP and combined from Vancouver. And Mao, despite her recent struggles, is still the Olympic Silver Medalist and the only woman to land three 3As in one comp (in Vancouver). And both Yuna and Mao have won WC titles before, and it's not like their Olympic medals were some fluke.

    So I don't think that CaroK's locked in for another WC title.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Heh. I'm very happy that CaroK skated like a World Champ here.

    But I haven't seen CaroK bring her A-game to big comps and do everything perfectly recently.

    Also you may be right CaroK has the WC bonus, but Yuna is the reigning Olympic Champion and still the holder of the WR scores in SP, LP and combined from Vancouver. And Mao, despite her recent struggles, is still the Olympic Silver Medalist and the only woman to land three 3As in one comp (in Vancouver). And both Yuna and Mao have won WC titles before, and it's not like their Olympic medals were some fluke.

    So I don't think that CaroK's locked in for another WC title.

    Well...they sure scored her like a 5 x world champions, protocols forwarded from Chinese skating boards.

    http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps4a56cb1e.jpg
    Last edited by os168; 12-23-2012 at 02:58 AM.

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