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Thread: 2013 Japanese Nationals Men

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    JSF invested too much in Yuzu with all this coach changing, etc., so it's kind of logical that they did whatever they could to justify their choice. !
    I totally agree with this... now it’s clear THEY wanted Yuzu to go to Canada and since then he has been paying a very high price, both physically and mentally. It’s sad to say it, but at least the fairy tale about the kid who firmly wanted to leave his hometown to train abroad is over...

  2. #242
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    Sayonara Oda , Kozuka

    Better luck next season

  3. #243
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    Thanks for the protocols which makes it a interesting reading.
    Consider Hanyu was marked generous for both programs, though SP is deserved consider it is a home event and the standard he displayed. Not so sure about the FS given what I saw.
    Judges could be more generous with Dai but there were no GPF bonus.
    The difference could work out something like
    2.5 points underscore from Dai for the SP
    2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)
    1 points from that weird feather from costumes.
    Dai could have got the gold.

  4. #244
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    After watching the skates, I don't have a problem with the placements, though I liked Dai's FS the most. If Dai won, I'd be fine with that, but giving the two programs as a whole, I think Hanyu was a worthy winner.

    Sad for Kozuka and Oda, but happy for Mura. I really think he has some good momentum going after that poor skate at Skate Canada. I think while he doesn't have the program components, he certainly makes up for it in lovely jumps and skating skills (and for the most part going clean).

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post

    Daisuke's FS... regardless of my criticism of the choreography, that guy IS a bonafide skating God!! This is undoubtedly the best Men's best FS I have seen or experienced all season. I practically had a weird existential experience overall watching Dai on this occasion like no other. I don't know about others, but during the step sequences, I suddenly became overwhelmed with an heartache that completely shook and surprised the heck out of me. After the rest of my logical senses caught up, I figured this is why Dai is the greatest most watchable male performer! He has the soul of the true artist. They can do that with the slightest touch when they are at ease with themselves and not seem to try so hard.
    I haven't watched yet, but I suspect that this is the way I'll react to Daisuke's skate. Whether he wins or places elsewhere, he has a command of movement and music that few other skaters can match.

  6. #246
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168
    2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)
    As if you couldn't say some of Dai's marks were generous too. I completly adore him as a skater, but that doesn't change this far from perfect choreography and the 'missing' transitions. And he got 9.25-9.75's for those components too.
    I think this could have gone either way, but Yuzuru deserved his gold medal. Some of this conspiracy theories here are just...

    Anyway: this season sucks!!!!
    Okay, so, maybe not completly... but Nobu and Taka nor at worlds nor 4CC? That's aweful. I used to watch Kozuka's gorgeous 'Sound of Silent' Ex to cheer me up on sadder days, and now that won't work anymore I guess. I'll miss him at worlds!
    And Oda, as an Osakan and being 4th, not even getting 4CC is just... I fell so sad for him.

    On the upside, I'm really, really happy for Mura. He has a lot of potential, and I enjoy his skating a lot. Hopefully he'll be great at both 4CC & worlds and really use the chance he got

    Daisuke really showed he still has it all. Hope he nails it like that again at worlds. This plus a better SP and he could be WC for the second time. I would love to see that happen.
    The main credit I'd give to Yuzuru now is skating the way he did after what Daisuke put out. He is one heck of a competitor. If he continues to work on his strength and stamina, he might become pretty consistent. And we know how much the jugdes love that... and speed. And huge monstrous jumps. Yuzuru is like made for this system.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    The difference could work out something like
    2.5 points underscore from Dai for the SP
    I don’t see how Dai was underscored 2.5 points in the sp-even some his fans think he underotated his 3a in the sp but was not called. If that was called then he was overscored 2.5 points, not underscored. So his tes would be 40.89 and total score 85.54.
    Then he already got a very high pcs, 44.65. If you give him 2.5 points more it would be skyrocketing 47.15. I don’t think Dai’s sp, or anybody’s sp, deserves 47 pcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)
    Quote Originally Posted by Li’Kitsu View Post
    As if you couldn't say some of Dai's marks were generous too. I completly adore him as a skater, but that doesn't change this far from perfect choreography and the 'missing' transitions. And he got 9.25-9.75's for those components too.
    I second Li’Kitsu. Dai got generous marks. He put out a marvellous performance and deserved 9.75 for p/e mark, but not enough transitions-his tr mark is generous. His skating skills are not too much better than Hanyu, who actually has better speed and ice coverage for example. If you knock off Hanyu’s ss then you should also knock off Dai’s ss mark. Then if you knock off Hanyu’s goe you should also knock off Dai’s goe, since Dai’s jumps are smaller and spins weaker. In general I think Dai was not underscored when he got pcs 96 and goe 17 while Hanyu’s pcs was kept below 90.

    Quote Originally Posted by Li’Kitsu View Post
    The main credit I'd give to Yuzuru now is skating the way he did after what Daisuke put out. He is one heck of a competitor. If he continues to work on his strength and stamina, he might become pretty consistent. And we know how much the jugdes love that... and speed. And huge monstrous jumps. Yuzuru is like made for this system.
    I also second this. This is what I began to think after watching Hanyu live at NHK.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    His skating skills are not too much better than Hanyu, who actually has better speed and ice coverage for example.
    I think your point about speed is an important one. A lot of people criticize Hanyu for losing speed during his FS, and that is valid, but one also has to recognize how fast he is to begin with. He flies across the ice during his SP and the first part of his FS.

  9. #249
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    I do love Hanyu's music but I watch him wishing Dai or Chan were skating to it but that's just me.

    I wish Kozuka was still going to worlds like Akiko but he is injured. I hope he makes it back where it belongs next season.
    Last edited by lavender; 12-23-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthetics View Post
    in the sp-even some his fans think he underotated his 3a in the sp but was not called.

    Dai got generous marks.
    Lame playing of 'fans card' I see here. His fans (and judges too, looking at GOE) also think that the ur and e calls in SP were wrong. How conveniently you "forgot" to mention that.

    As for the "generous" marks, it's all about to what you compare it. It's doesn't make sense to compare Nationals to international competitions and we all know why. The only more or less right way to compare the score at Nationals is to compare it to the rival's. And here the one who got generously overscored with all home advantge was Yuzu, while Dai got none, and he actually was judged way strcicter than even at international events (ur, sq level, etc.). Yuzu didn't even start with high speed as he used to do. Now he gets it slowerer, probably trying to keep his stamina to finish the prog. It might caused his mistakes on both quads, one of which didn't even get -GOE, the 4S from two-foot was judged rather kind. Then he just lost his speed completly and was walking from elements to elements expressing no musicality and character. When they make fake champions from evans, sarahs, chans and others- I don't care much. They all donn't have any talent or charisma. Yuzu could become a real star, the one whose prog people would want to rewatch, like his R&J in Nice. Wanting to rewatch a sick kid who needs food, hug and who can bearly finish his prog is not healthy to say the least. If they don't change the coaching policy readrding Yuzu, he won't have a long career, which would be a real shame considering his potential. Stupid JSF.

  11. #251
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Takahashi definitely won this event from my perspective. He vastly outskated Hanyu in the LP and made just a small mistake in the SP. I don't think his SP Quad deserved that < call and Hanyu was gifted in the LP both on PCS and GOE (especially for those shaky quads, which should have been -2 on the first and -3 on the second).

  12. #252
    Custom Title figuristka's Avatar
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    Sorry to read Kozuka was injured. He is a lovely skater. I adore so many things about Yuzuru but i felt his Free should not have been placed quite as close to Dai's. Should have been closer between them for the Gold. I often think Dai should have even more 10s for performance execution and interpretation of music. How can this part be any better? Japan is so lucky to have Dai, and Yuzuru. Its unfortunate there are so many talented Japanese men who may not be able to get to Worlds, or Olympics. Alexei Yagudin who i adored was not national champion when he won Olympics, or even Worlds. It hopefully should not hurt Dai to not win Nationals.

  13. #253
    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post

    I wish Kozuka was still going to worlds like Akiko but he is injured. I hope he makes it back where it belongs next season.
    Crushed and heartbroken for Taka, but hoping he's back stronger than ever for the Olympic season. Thrilled that Akiko will go to Worlds!

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by figuristka View Post
    Sorry to read Kozuka was injured. He is a lovely skater. I adore so many things about Yuzuru but i felt his Free should not have been placed quite as close to Dai's. Should have been closer between them for the Gold. I often think Dai should have even more 10s for performance execution and interpretation of music. How can this part be any better? Japan is so lucky to have Dai, and Yuzuru. Its unfortunate there are so many talented Japanese men who may not be able to get to Worlds, or Olympics. Alexei Yagudin who i adored was not national champion when he won Olympics, or even Worlds. It hopefully should not hurt Dai to not win Nationals.
    Actually, Alexei has never won a Senior National title. Very shocking, indeed. That's what happens when you have one of the greatest rivalries in figure skating with a fellow countrymen :P

  15. #255
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    Re: Li'Kitsu, Aesthetics

    I see I touched a nerve... please chill, I am a huge fan of Hanyu but I'd like to consider myself as someone who tries to be objective.

    Here's my perspective. The more I learn about Cop - the more I learn not to take these scores as absolute numbers but more of a threshold/tolerance level determined by a bunch of variables about the competition that can determine whether the final mark are at the upper threshold or lower threshold almost like a moving dartboard. Sometimes Judges can hit a bulls eye (if the quality of judging is high and unbiased), but more likely they can also get it incredibly wrong subject to human error. Bear mind, these judges are really making an estimates, therefore do account for things like emotional impulses, impressions, perceived ideas, personal biases of how the ranking of skaters, and very importantly (though a taboo subject) national competition judges tends to have personal agendas that can determine how they mark the skaters, for the good of federation, national interest and all that.

    Hanyu is the fav home boy who broke 2 SP world record this year, so of course they are pushing for him to break 3rd hoping to build him momentum to worlds for a 4th WR. In someways I felt Daisuke is being held down because they probably have an idea that they want Hanyu to rank 1st because his program is a world record program, and Dai's doesn't have the prestige of a world class choreographer to back it up. I am not the only one who saw the strict calling on Dai on this occasion. I don't even want to get into how loose they are with Ladies and their UR at this competition, that is another whole can of worms.

    For FS, Imo Dai's probably Maxed 95% tech and 105% artistry potential of his program in showing that he can overcome a so so program, mediocre choreography and still make something superb. The achievement in itself spectacular and can not be measured by COP. If I am a choreographer, I'd fight tooth and nail just to land Dai in my books and even consider offer to work for free. He is capable of taking choreography beyond and give them life. It may sound gushy, but I can totally understand the previous poster who mentioned he/she wish Daisuke has been given David Wilson's choreography for Notre Dame, because the only way for that program to work, is to really focus on the soaring highlights of the music when the artist/performer must be thoroughly emotionally invested really showcase each soaring notes with freedom and complete abandonment - similar to how Hanyu was at his Romeo and Juliet WC version last year really letting himself go. For this performance, I'd say he maxed out 84% tech, 64% artistry. He isn't just focus on the tech but seems to focus on his pacing as while visibly clenched not letting himself go, and was slower by his standard. Regardless of his physical conditions and personal circumstances, we can only judge on what he put out on the day, and imo he slacked alot on this particular performance, thus my view he was overmarked in PCS and benefited generously from GOE.

    If you compare Hanyu's FS performance PCS this year with last year's Romeo and Juliet PCS (WC version), I'd easily place last year as higher than this year based on what i see (though last year he was under marked). If you also compare his PCS from early of the season, you'd see how much Hanyu improved through out the season, and while he deserve the momentum, he was lucky today. You compare to someone like Dai who worked years putting out consistent great work to achieve high PCS and today he put out one of his best performance in ages including 2 quads, he deserve his high PCS. I personally think they should be alot closer than 5 points, as I have suggested in my earlier post particularly with regards to PCS.

    Overall, these 2 are amazing and each have their own strength, but based on what I saw, I'd have Dai win the gold by 0.05 points at least
    Last edited by os168; 12-25-2012 at 03:21 AM.

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