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Thread: 2013 Japanese Nationals Men

  1. #271
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    FWIW: If the technical controller does not call it UR, then the judges would have no reason to mark down Hanyu's GOE. The judges do not give or takeaway GOE based on "perception of UR" but rather based on the recommendations of the technical panel. (I do not think it was UR, IMO).

    Here's the guidelines for determining +GOE. They state you should give +1 for fufilling 2 of these guidelines; +2 for fufilling 4 of these guidlines and +3 for six of those guidelines. If the tech controller calls the jump UR, judges are recommend to take out -1 or -2 GOE. However, that was not the case. So with that in mind:

    1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    8) element matched to the musical structure
    Most of the judges gave +2 with two judges giving +3 (one judge gave +1) . But the majority of the judges felt he fulfilled at least 4 of the bullets.

    Here's Yuzuru's program's at the point of that 3A-3T: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s#t=02m58s

    I'd say, that he definitely got bullet point 1,2, 7 and 8. (Difficult entry, steps, effortless and elements matched to the music.). The ones who gave +3 could make a case for point 3, 4 or 6 as well, though I think it could go either way. Point is, perhaps the combo is not the best he could do that, but GOE doesn't judge based on comparisons to the skater best attempt, but whether, in general, the jump as done that day, fulfills the requirements.

    I'd say +2 is reasonable. I think the guys that gave +3 were a bit GOE happy.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 12-24-2012 at 05:35 PM.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoja View Post
    I see, no straight answer from you. No surprise
    I gave you a straightforward answer, as well as detailed analysis of the whole tech calling thing. Do you want the judges to call all jumps in question? Then by your logic Takahashi would get 4T<, 3A<, and 3Lz (e) 3T< in the SP. He would also get 4T<2T, 3A<2T<2Lo<, and 3Lz (e) 3T in the LP. Kozuka would get 4T< and 3A< in the SP and a bunch of URs in the LP. Yuzru would get 3A3T< in the LP. I haven’t studied the rest of the men, but I’m sure everyone would get some < and e marks. Then you would just make the Japanese Nationals the most strict competition.

    I’m a supporter of strict UR calling, so I wouldn’t mind if all the obviously URed jumps and not obvious jumps with question marks were both called <. But I saw many posters already think the Japanese tech panel is strict now and they don’t want more strict calling, which is why I didn’t point out the various URs if you had not asked me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    The ones who gave +3 could make a case for point 3, 4 or 6 as well, though I think it could go either way.
    I think that 3A got bullet point 3 because it had delay in rotation. I notice that Yuzru always rotates slower at first on the ascent of the jump and then near the peak he becomes faster and quickly finishes the rotation. His 3A is different from most other skaters who immediately begin rapid rotation.
    Last edited by lakeside; 12-24-2012 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    ... I compared the beginnings of Yuzru and Takahashi’s programs. After watching the first minute of Takahashi’s program Yuzru seemed so much faster in the first minute, like he was flying. If you think Yuzru lost his speed before he started, then Takahashi left his speed at home. Then during the last minute Yuzru slowed down and I agree he looked so sick and fragile, but still he maintained the same speed as Takahashi in the last ChSt.

    I agree with Riemann that Yuzru did lose speed in the last minute of LP, but that was because he had more speed to start with, which made his slowing down more visible. Takahashi, Kozuka, Mura, Oda, and many other skaters did not even start with Yuzru’s speed.
    That is the problem, you are not looking at the program as a whole, and one shouldn't judge things like speed to relative to another competitor when they are performing to completely different programs, different music and choreography.

    Look at his FS program again and break up the the music cut
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s

    * Intro pace 1 (51sec) Started slow, graceful as if introduce the audience a classic european tale of some kind at a land far far away.
    - Enriched further with layers instrumental to suggest this is going to be an emotional epic tale with aspect of Gothic romance, possible tragedy that require similar interpretation from ease growing to something more dramatic as the pace picks up..

    * 1min 29sec Key dramatic change noted by the loud drum toll, lush strings to heighten the dramatics motif of the music presenting this adventure tale possibly leading to some sort of tragic romance of uncertainty.

    * 2min08 Change of pace in + percussion instrumentals suggest the dooming dark part of the story heading towards a thrilling ride, this should increase with greater varied and sure footed dramatic foot sequence with haunted feel with real risks on the line; think of a matter of life and death (the foot step should follow this but did not).

    * 2min46 Music quieten down to some self reflective mood, part of an internal dialogue about questions, regrets, pent up unresolved feelings. This is when Hanyu should able to skate with winding down ease and finesse to convey these nuanced feelings about self doubts, and questions beyond one self before settling down to the conclusion part with the 3lutz.

    * However, the most critical part of the whole program should REALLY be about building everything to a soaring dramatic finish at 4min21, where the crowning glory moment of the whole program. The music implies he should skate with complete freedom and abandonment as Hunch Back grew to accept himself completely, spiritual freedom and awakening not limited by any superficial physical impediment (Actually Hanyu should understand this well, perhaps that was why David Wilson picked this for him.) - his reason of being, being excellent and just be graceful peaceful being himself. This is when he should speed FAST, at ease and smoothly the most, big strokes, deep edges. Unfortunately, this crowning emotional height of the program was not delivered, and ends up being the least emotional invested part of the performance and least powered, which was why the program feel insincere and jarring. Or to summarize, a bit of a 'meh'!

    Compare this to his Romeo and Juliet last year, this is COP skating, cold and calculating. It wins scores, but not my heart. I actually think this program at the right hands could be something special. The music cut is just as ambitious in scale as his Romeo and Juliet, but I do wonder if some of the directions has been lost in translation. It certainly makes me appreciate other skaters like Yuna and Jeremy who can fully embrace Wilson's choreography, full of busy transitions as well and tap into the emotional aspect of the music to flesh out the choreography fully to the audience with meaning and purpose.
    Last edited by os168; 12-24-2012 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I’m a supporter of strict UR calling, so I wouldn’t mind if all the obviously URed jumps and not obvious jumps with question marks were both called <. But I saw many posters already think the Japanese tech panel is strict now and they don’t want more strict calling, which is why I didn’t point out the various URs if you had not asked me.
    Here is what I think about that.

    In every sport there comes a time when you have to "let the players play." In sports like basketball and hockey, the referee could blow the whistle on every block, charge, or hit. This would be in accordance with the rule book, but it would change the game from a sport to a day in law school class. In particular, the fans would hate it.

    I think figure skating is like that, too. Let the skaters skate. Otherwise, only statisticians and parliamentarians will care enough about the sport to watch.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is what I think about that.

    In every sport there comes a time when you have to "let the players play." In sports like basketball and hockey, the referee could blow the whistle on every block, charge, or hit. This would be in accordance with the rule book, but it would change the game from a sport to a day in law school class. In particular, the fans would hate it.

    I think figure skating is like that, too. Let the skaters skate. Otherwise, only statisticians and parliamentarians will care enough about the sport to watch.
    Great point, MM. Ultimately judges/tech folks are human and sometimes people will be unhappy with the calls (Seattle Seahawks fans are still bitter with the calls of 2006 Super Bowl; though it looks like they might have another shot this year ) but in the end, you just have to make the call the best you can and if that call is made unfavorably towards you, you learn from it and you figure out how you do things so there isn't even a shadow of a doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    [B] For this performance, I'd say he maxed out 84% tech, 64% artistry. He isn't just focus on the tech but seems to focus on his pacing as while visibly clenched not letting himself go, and was slower by his standard.
    For your information,he said in an interview after Free skate,he thought he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far.

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    os168, I think what you described mainly falls under INT. Yes, it doesn't match up to R&J from last season, but Dai's FS doesn't come close to Blues for Klook from last season either, so you can't really compare things that way. While Dai made the most of his program, I wouldn't rate the choreo, the transitions, and his SS significantly better than Yuzuru, so you still have to give credit where credit is due. Dai's performance was excellent and the larger PCS gap (compared to GPF) reflected that, but you can't throw everything else out the door. For the tech calls, I agree with Mrs. P and really don't think they were purposely holding Dai down. There were some close calls, and some went in Dai's favour and some didn't. The judges were GOE happy with both of them, with Dai scoring 17 pts in that area and Yuzuru scoring 10. All in all, I thought Yuzuru did win fairly. You can argue for one more point here and one less point there, but those observations are bound to come up in a close competition, and could be made on either side.

  8. #278
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    Os168, you make a good argument about the music, but I think the cold, calculating, "COP skating" approach has been demonstrated to be quite effective in terms of winning comps, so don't expect it to change anytime soon. The Orser method of leaving no points on the table (which we saw with Yuna as well) gets the job done.
    Last edited by Riemann; 12-24-2012 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitterpatter View Post
    os168, I think what you described mainly falls under INT. Yes, it doesn't match up to R&J from last season, but Dai's FS doesn't come close to Blues for Klook from last season either, so you can't really compare things that way. While Dai made the most of his program, I wouldn't rate the choreo, the transitions, and his SS significantly better than Yuzuru, so you still have to give credit where credit is due. Dai's performance was excellent and the larger PCS gap (compared to GPF) reflected that, but you can't throw everything else out the door. For the tech calls, I agree with Mrs. P and really don't think they were purposely holding Dai down. There were some close calls, and some went in Dai's favour and some didn't. The judges were GOE happy with both of them, with Dai scoring 17 pts in that area and Yuzuru scoring 10. All in all, I thought Yuzuru did win fairly. You can argue for one more point here and one less point there, but those observations are bound to come up in a close competition, and could be made on either side.
    See that is my problem with the COP, how can someone's inability to interpret music correctly not also affect overall mark for Choreography, PE more severely also? Alot of these overlap, are entirely interdependent with each other, and they should not carry the same weigh in performance art competitions. Otherwise it is like saying a Pianist at a Tchaikovsky competition deserve to win just in because he score well in techniques, shows great improvements, has elite education from a good background, good teacher with great reputation, good onstage presence, did 80% he set out to do which is good enough because he is playing a well regarded piece of music but only slightly weak interpretation. His overall quality put him ahead despite his one small mistakes. Except in this case interpretation certainly affect everything else in performance and carry far weight than other identified component and also beyond these components, including reading comprehensions therefore credibility of his entire performance/execution/choreography not adequately delivered by his SS etc. Also in a real performance art competition, the rare near perfection should weigh a lot more than an imperfect uninspired but well regarded performance. That is what COP failed and it is also entirely lob sided. It is the equivalent of a system designer who knows nothing about skating but and decide to reward all triple jumps the same value, when they clearly should not be the same.

    Bear in mind though, I do think Hanyu is still capable of delivering the potential program if he put more care, thoughts and heart into it like R & J. Otherwise I wouldn't have put it as one of my Christmas List wishes, for him to break Patrick's FS record. Based on what I can see, he is far from that potential at the moment.

    I disagree about Yuna, sure she did accomplish some of the best COP scoring ever in terms of scoring, but at her best, it doesnt' feel anything like cold and calculated. Sure every performer have their off days (including Dai and Hanyu) and it is impossible to be at 100% all the time, but at her best, she took these performance to something transcend the COP system, or any system and made them stunning and unforgettable, which is why judges and more importantly the world wide audience/press/media/knowledgeable industry veterans responded. Just watch her Danse Macabre, Lark Ascending, Gershwin, Bond, Tango De Roxanne and tells me it is only due to the COP? Hanyu has shown he is fully capable of that last year (which is what makes me like him so much) but at this particular performance compare to what Dai did, he was lucky his SP gap was big enough (that bit is a bit like Yuna ).

    And welll.... What a funny latest statement from Hanyu to imply he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far. It kind of suggest I was right more than I am not? I am not sure why he said what he said. By admitting this, he admit he wasn't best today (so how does that justify the high PCS, GOE etc? Should that knock 50% marks off? Judges overmarked him by 49% at least? lol... how do the fans respond to that now? ). Poor Daisuke ... your 100% best just got knocked by 50% best from Hanyu because you are no longer as well liked. Hmm.... yeah it stinks!! If he didn't look so ill, I'd be even tough on him today. Hope he improves at worlds, he seriously need to turn up the fire to justify these scores. Otherwise I'd hate to lump him into the exclusive group of over marked Japanese skaters with strong federation support.
    Last edited by os168; 12-24-2012 at 11:46 PM.

  10. #280
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    Hi, everyone and merry christmas.
    I am in awe of os168's lucidity and evocative use of language!!
    I have to sit down and follow his points with the video to fully appreciate it.
    Thank you for a wonderful christmas present!!

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168
    And welll.... What a funny latest statement from Hanyu to imply he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far. It kind of suggest I was right more than I am not? I am not sure why he said what he said. By admitting this, he admit he wasn't best today (so how does that justify the high PCS, GOE etc? Should that knock 50% marks off? Judges overmarked him by 49% at least? lol... how do the fans respond to that now? ). Poor Daisuke ... your 100% best just got knocked by 50% best from Hanyu because you are no longer as well liked. Hmm.... yeah it stinks!! If he didn't look so ill, I'd be even tough on him today. Hope he improves at worlds, he seriously need to turn up the fire to justify these scores. Otherwise I'd hate to lump him into the exclusive group of over marked Japanese skaters with strong federation support.
    Oh boy, what a useless way to ill-conditionedly overinterpretate something that a young boy said. Of course, "I only managed 50% today!" completly equals "I should have gotten just 50% of the marks I got"
    Maybe he just wanted to say that he wasn't satisfied with what he did today, and that he still feels he can do better overall. Not that he deliberatly didn't give his best or whatever you want to think. So what? Do you think Daisuke was at 100% when he won the GPF? Very likely not, and he still deserved that win (while there are poeple who thought Yuzuru should have won that). It was easy to see Hanyu wasn't completly at his best here. And he didn't win the free. If you look at the SP - Hanyu was at his best, Daisuke wasn't at his.
    So Yuzuru should be marked down in over half of the components and overall marks just because you don't like his interpretation of the last 20sec or soemthing? Sorry, no agreement here at all.
    I can certainly see some good points why Daisuke could/should have won this competition, but your reasons are half-convincing at best. And whatever problems you have with the COP overall, that's not Hanyus problem here too. So if you want to lumb him in whatever group you want too - have a lot of fun doing so. Because it makes perfectly sense that the JSF already backs up Hanyu more than they ever did back up Daisuke. I guess WTT is one of the perfect proofs for that.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    For this performance, I'd say he maxed out 84% tech, 64% artistry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elsa G View Post
    For your information,he said in an interview after Free skate,he thought he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    And welll.... What a funny latest statement from Hanyu to imply he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far. It kind of suggest I was right more than I am not? I am not sure why he said what he said. By admitting this, he admit he wasn't best today (so how does that justify the high PCS, GOE etc? Should that knock 50% marks off? Judges overmarked him by 49% at least? lol... how do the fans respond to that now? ). Poor Daisuke ... your 100% best just got knocked by 50% best from Hanyu because you are no longer as well liked. Hmm.... yeah it stinks!! If he didn't look so ill, I'd be even tough on him today. Hope he improves at worlds, he seriously need to turn up the fire to justify these scores. Otherwise I'd hate to lump him into the exclusive group of over marked Japanese skaters with strong federation support.
    I see Elsa G’s post giving us information about what Yuzru thought of himself, which could be different from the opinion of an audience i.e. you. You could watch his performance and think he maxed out 84% in tech, but Yuzru himself could have another opinion. I remember Tracy or someone commented at one competition that Yuzru is a perfectionist, so if he thinks he skated 50% of his capability it only means he was not satisfied with his performance and he will try to skate more well next time. I don’t know how this perfectionist comment and wish for himself to skate more well next time could be perceived as the judges overscored him by 50%?

    Plus, what does Yuzru’s comment have to do with how judges judged his LP? The judges scored him based on what he put out on the ice that night and how that met the checkbox of scoring system, not based on how well Yuzru thought he skated. For instance, you thought Yuzru maxed out 84% in tech, but some judges might have thought he maxed out 90% in tech. Different people could have different opinions. What if Yuzru said he skated 100% in the interview? By your logic (which you think he skated 84%), it would become that he was underscored by 16%? So Yuzru should always say he skated 100% in all the interviews to be marked higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    He isn't just focus on the tech but seems to focus on his pacing as while visibly clenched not letting himself go, and was slower by his standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    That is the problem, you are not looking at the program as a whole, and one shouldn't judge things like speed to relative to another competitor when they are performing to completely different programs, different music and choreography.
    ……
    My original comment was a response to let’s talk and your posts who said Yuzru was slower by his standard/did not have his usual speed. So I replied even though he did not have his usual speed, he was still faster than all others including Takahashi. I was talking about speed and skating skills. Your reply to me was more an analysis of the program, choreography, and performance. I don’t think you and I were talking about the same thing. Also notice that skating skills and transitions have nothing to do with interpretation and choreography. SS and TR are supposed to be scored independently. If you don’t like how COP is not looking at the program as a whole when they score skating skills, transitions, jumps, spins, etc. that’s not Yuzru’s problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    * However, the most critical part of the whole program should REALLY be about building everything to a soaring dramatic finish at 4min21, where the crowning glory moment of the whole program……This is when he should speed FAST, at ease and smoothly the most, big strokes, deep edges. Unfortunately, this crowning emotional height of the program was not delivered, and ends up being the least emotional invested part of the performance and least powered, which was why the program feel insincere and jarring. Or to summarize, a bit of a 'meh'!
    Quote Originally Posted by Li’Kitsu View Post
    So Yuzuru should be marked down in over half of the components and overall marks just because you don't like his interpretation of the last 20sec or soemthing? Sorry, no agreement here at all.
    I also think Takahashi should have more speed, bigger strokes, and deeper edges in his last ChSt, which was the climax of the whole program when Canio lost his mind. But I wouldn’t think he was overscored just because he didn’t have the speed and deep edges that I exepected him to have. I think overall Takahashi did enough for the program to win the LP, and I think Yuzru did enough for his score. Plus, remember Takahashi’s PCS was 6.3 points higher than Yuzru, so I think the judges already acknowledged Takahashi’s performance was much better than Yuzru that night. But I don’t think Yuzru should be marked any lower than what he got.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Hanyu has shown he is fully capable of that last year (which is what makes me like him so much) but at this particular performance compare to what Dai did, he was lucky his SP gap was big enough (that bit is a bit like Yuna ).
    There are many skaters who won overall because of big SP gap, e.g., did you object that Takahashi won last year’s Japanese Nationals because he was lucky his SP gap was big enough?

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalina View Post
    With that said, I think people tend to watch skating too much from a fan's perspective and forget that this is a sport, and that in terms of scoring components
    Everyone knows that Dai won last year Nationals due to a huge gap between him and the silver medalist in SP: 11 points, and the silver medalist didn't have a good FS, had a fall and lousy skating. So, your comparison with last year's Dai/Taka and this year Dai/Yuzu has no merit. Yeah, let's judge on the sport perspective. There is nothing super-puper wow in Hanyu TES to give him so generous GOE, especially with obvious mistakes. And what is more shameful- those ridicoulous PCS. Even for his Canadian coworker it took longer time to crack 9s, while Hanyu got it just like that, even if his fans think that he has artistic shortcomings. Then what you want from all the rest.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I don’t think the Japanese domestic judges were harsher to Takahashi since Takahashi got UR calls at all international events this season, especially his quads have been called UR a lot.
    Eh? So, if judges gave a fall deduction to the skater in one event, they should give it in all others? What you are talking about? Judges give marks for the particular skating, and not for what was judged in other events. :
    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I gave you a straightforward answer.
    No, you didn't. I don't see any gifs, pics, screenshots, etc. Apply the same method to all skaters, otherwise you are biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    did you object that Takahashi won last year’s Japanese Nationals because he was lucky his SP gap was big enough?
    Maybe he got lucky. Because if Kozuka delivered a great skating in FS, then Dai wouldn't be a champion. That it what should have happened this year if the judging was fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Oh boy, what a useless way to ill-conditionedly overinterpretate something that a young boy said. Of course, "I only managed 50% today!" completly equals "I should have gotten just 50% of the marks I got" ...
    I can certainly see some good points why Daisuke could/should have won this competition, but your reasons are half-convincing at best. And whatever problems you have with the COP overall, that's not Hanyus problem here too. So if you want to lumb him in whatever group you want too - have a lot of fun doing so. Because it makes perfectly sense that the JSF already backs up Hanyu more than they ever did back up Daisuke. I guess WTT is one of the perfect proofs for that.
    But that is my point, isn't it funny with numbers? I hope the tongue in cheek tone in that paragraph do came across of how numbers can only be used to played against an argument too. There are those who swear by the numbers as facts to justify the win, but in actual you can't have it both ways. Without consider these the motivation and meaning behind numbers and only take them at face value, you are putting yourself in a one or the other ways of thinking. In any case i am sticking to my estimate (+-10%). Hanyu has always been humble boy, and it is in my opinion he drop the rate to motivate himself to do better, though by doing so, he does leave himself open for criticism for not able to show his best today and still some how won the competition against a skating God who put out a great pair of performances, his bests in ages.

    I disagree Hanyu should be given a pass and treated like a boy. In Sport in all fairness, everyone should be treated equally whether you are 16 or 27; whether you are a 2 times world champion or a newbie; whether you are a favorite or 10 times loser; whether you sufferer some personal and national tragedy or injuries; or if you are a media darling Vs a total nobody. Nobody deserve a free pass because of who they are, and it should be what they bring on the ice on the day that count the most. Problem is figure skating isn't always like this, when federations/commercial pressures all have their own agenda to see certain skaters win. When these final rankings (Not scoring) are affected because of these 'interests' and 'manipulation', it concerns me.

    Regarding the bolded part. So you DO admit JSF favoured him this time and is perfectly fine with the result? I hope not. See that is the problem when federation actively push for skaters that took wins off the rightful winner (they have done this at NHK too), it goes against the purpose of a fair competition. It is about artificially manipulating the result for the greater good of the federation and not the skater. And if you condone this sort of manipulation, you should be worried about Hanyu next year, what if he suddenly came down with a series of injuries that hurt him through out the season where he performed below expectation, except at Nationals where he put on his best performances ever, except because JSF decide to prop up some other skater and give up on him, he may get the Daisuke treatment like at this competition even having skated the lights out ON THE DAY?

    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    ...There are many skaters who won overall because of big SP gap, e.g., did you object that Takahashi won last year’s Japanese Nationals because he was lucky his SP gap was big enough?
    I am against any system or point manipulation, end of. See the above for explanation.

    Merry Xmas everyone!

    Re: StellaCampo, thanks for the compliment. I am actually a big fan girl of both Hanyu and Daisuke and in particularly the artistry of skating, that is why this topic interest me.
    Last edited by os168; 12-25-2012 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    Everyone knows that Dai won last year Nationals due to a huge gap between him and the silver medalist in SP: 11 points, and the silver medalist didn't have a good FS, had a fall and lousy skating. So, your comparison with last year's Dai/Taka and this year Dai/Yuzu has no merit. Yeah, let's judge on the sport perspective. There is nothing super-puper wow in Hanyu TES to give him so generous GOE, especially with obvious mistakes. And what is more shameful- those ridicoulous PCS. Even for his Canadian coworker it took longer time to crack 9s, while Hanyu got it just like that, even if his fans think that he has artistic shortcomings. Then what you want from all the rest.
    Last year the silver medalist Kozuka did not skate perfectly in the LP, but it was enough to beat Takahashi, who had three falls and “lousy skating.” This year Takahashi skated well in the LP, but Yuzru did not skate as poorly as Takahashi’s LP last year. Yuzru had no falls and completed all his planned jumps. Since he has extremely high BV, when he doesn't fall he would get high TES.

    If you think “there is nothing super-puper wow in Hanyu TES to give him so generous GOE,” then there’s nothing super-puper wow in Takahashi’s TES to give him so generous GOE either. Yuzru’s total GOE was 10, while Takahashi’s total GOE was 17! I think Takahashi was more gifted in GOE’s. If you compare PCS’s, then everyone got high PCS at this competition. Kozuka for example got 84.4 with that train wreck skate. Then Yuzru’s 89.7 was not high at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    And here the one who got generously overscored with all home advantge was Yuzu, while Dai got none, and he actually was judged way strcicter than even at international events (ur, sq level, etc.).
    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I don’t think the Japanese domestic judges were harsher to Takahashi since Takahashi got UR calls at all international events this season, especially his quads have been called UR a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    Eh? So, if judges gave a fall deduction to the skater in one event, they should give it in all others? What you are talking about? Judges give marks for the particular skating, and not for what was judged in other events. :
    Oh, please read your original post, my dear let’s talk. You were the one who said that Takahashi “actually was judged way stricter than even at international events.” Than I listed the data and told you that was not true. He got UR calls at all international events this season. Why change subject of discussion in your new post? Plus, the Japanese judges gave marks for Takahashi’s particular skating at Japanese Nationals, and the calls were all right.

    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    No, you didn't. I don't see any gifs, pics, screenshots, etc. Apply the same method to all skaters, otherwise you are biased.
    I will only do gifs and screenshots for the jumps that are called by the judges this time. If you want me to question the jumps that are not called, then it would only be fair to study all the jumps in question, i.e., Takahashi’s 3A< and 3Lz (e) 3T< (?) in the SP and his 3A<2T<2Lo< and 3Lz (e) 3T in the LP, as well as Yuzru’s 3T< (?) in the LP and Kozuka’s 3A< in the SP and a bunch of questionable jumps in the LP.

    That would be starting a video war. I don’t think other posters and the moderators are interested to see that. So let’s not get into that, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I am against any system or point manipulation, end of. See the above for explanation.
    So by your logic, you think that last year’s Japanese Nationals result was manipulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I disagree Hanyu should be given a pass and treated like a boy. In Sport in all fairness, everyone should be treated equally whether you are 16 or 27; whether you are a 2 times world champion or a newbie; whether you are a favorite or 10 times loser; whether you sufferer some personal and national tragedy or injuries; or if you are a media darling Vs a total nobody. Nobody deserve a free pass because of who they are, and it should be what they bring on the ice on the day that count the most.
    I don’t understand this part. Maybe you think Takahashi got a free pass last year, but I don’t see Yuzru given a free pass here. He completed all technical elements and got PCS that’s fair compared to his competitors. He was not treated as a boy. The judges probably just agreed with you and thought he maxed out 84% in tech. What does that have to do with being a boy? If a boy maxed out 84% in tech he would still get a high score. And who is “media darling”? Who is “2 times world champion”? Nothing applies here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Li’Kitsu View Post
    So if you want to lumb him in whatever group you want too - have a lot of fun doing so. Because it makes perfectly sense that the JSF already backs up Hanyu more than they ever did back up Daisuke. I guess WTT is one of the perfect proofs for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Regarding the bolded part. So you DO admit JSF favoured him this time and is perfectly fine with the result? I hope not.
    What? It’s obvious to me that Li’Kitsu was being sarcastic. I’m surprised that you didn’t understand that. I remember some Japanese posters think WTT (and Japan Open) are proofs that the JSF lowballed Yuzru because they didn’t give him a chance to participate and Takahashi got skyrocketing scores at these events.

    I don’t see any favoring and manipulation at this year’s Japanese Nationals. I saw you suggested something like “The difference could work out something like 2.5 points underscore from Dai for the SP” and “2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise).” I don’t see where the 2.5 points underscoring in Takahashi’s SP comes from, and I don’t see any GOE and PCS overscoring in Yuzru compared to Takahashi’s GOE and PCS. I just don’t see any evidence of “manipulation” in all your posts, but you sound as if the “manipulation” is a given fact in your newest post…

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