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Thread: 2013 Japanese Nationals Men

  1. #301
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let's talk
    You folks make it sound like this is nothing wrong with that. Federations are not supposed to favour certain skaters in the first place. They are supposed to be impartial. That's charming to see how some fs fans support political games and then we feel surprised why the creditibility and popularity of this sport is where it is. Thanks, guys.
    Geez, you just turned my words around to something I didn't say and you know it. Those words fell in response to os168 who claims there's something like this going on. I'm saying all the time that I don't think this favoring exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by os168
    Does the score reflect what they put out on the ice ON THE DAY? If you think it is still does, then I have no more comment, because I see it differently, quite simply.
    Eh... so what? I mostly agree with the scores - if you don't, that's fine. This wasn't the first competition were you can argue with the marks, it won't be the last. That's what happens in a sport depending on judge's scores. You can find a way to argue against those results more often than you can not. But that doesn't mean you have to turn all of this into some weird conspiracy theories.

    Besides that, you could actually argue with the marks. But you didn't - all you did was saying "overscored by 2 points", "underscored by 2 points". But not which exact marks you think were wrong. And if you're going to start the talk about Hanyu being too slow that last 20 seconds again and how that should effect all of his marks... you can give me a nice and simple explanation of how you think Takahashi deserved his ~9.5 in transistions with that program

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Geez, you just turned my words around to something I didn't say and you know it.
    Now you claim that you know what I know . That's fine. There was no need to turn around what you wrote yourself here. That reputation judging exists, this and that judging exists, i.e. criteria that are not listed as supposed to be judged at all. I actually agree with you on this one. Because there is no other way to explain why the prog of a sick kid who needs food was judged higher than his own prog R&J last season. Moreover, it cracked 9 which is not a common thing even in Nationals among way more elite and masterful skaters. I told it here already. Your opponent mentioned R&J more than once. I noticed that you've been escaping the direct answer. That's fine too.
    That's what happens in a sport depending on judge's scores.
    The article is wrong. Not in any sport, but in the sport. In this very particular with CoP in apply. You guys are missing the main point- CoP is very flexible to "customers"' needs. They can make the score and the winner they wish, then they show you the protocols to "prove" how right they are and say that they attended seminars. Your buddy mentioned levels in stsq, did you actually read how they are supposed to determine them? Nothing is scrutinized, can be interpreted any way around. Or like Shekhovtsova said in the interview at RN about judging in Dances. There she for example spoke about levels of lifts and said it requires 90degrees between partners. How they are examining during the dance those 90degress I wonder, and if they "saw" 85degress, they can lower the level of the lift? Oh well. RN was actually quite fairly judged more or less. JSF is a stupid fat scumbag. With CoP in apply they can switch their favour from your baby Yuzu any moment they wish. The fact that you folks absolutely don't get it is pretty dumb thing to do.

  3. #303
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let's talk
    Your opponent mentioned R&J more than once. I noticed that you've been escaping the direct answer. That's fine too.
    Opponent... alright. So, the direct answer to what?

  4. #304
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    Here are my favorite performances from Mens Free.

    -Keiji Tanaka: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djCI_E3mXCY
    The most emotional performance I have ever seen from him! I love Keiji's take/choreo to 'The untouchables', more than Brezina's one.

    -Akio Sasaki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ptdJK-9Kg
    What a gutsy performance going for two 3As, which has been his enemy jump whole his career.

    -Kento Nakamura: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ALjyKyCaWc
    Kento had to skate right after Daisuke's near-perfect free skaee. Though he fell on the first 3A, he was able to overcome his nerve and somehow held it together till the end. Look at Kento's face at 4:49, and from 6:17 Kento's and his coach's faces with big smiles then crying faces together! The moments like this reminds me once again why I love this sport so much and can't help rooting for every skaters, regardless of win or not, points or placements, best skater in the world or second tier skater, favorite or less favorite skater for me!

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Very imformative. With the same success I can say that maybe you have some inside knowledge into the inner workings of the kind JSF to claim that nothing dirty is going on.
    I don't claim to know anything; I'm not an authority on anything.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by emdee View Post
    Tracy is Hanyu's skating skills coach so her opinion would be from watching him on a day to day basis and not because he broke the record twice.
    Of course I know she is his coach,her name on his coach list.If you saw the viedo,you heard what Tracy said,you will know she said he broke the record twice made him a perfectionist.

  7. #307
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    Gosh,If some one simply ask whether hanyu being loved by many judeges?
    I say probably YES.
    In my own country,one retired ISU judge referee said hanyu will become world champion after watching his performance first time for TV broadcast of 2012 World Champion.Another ISU judge's words of praise made other male skaters' fan jealous,he also said he is a genius and will become a world champion.One of international judges even said she want him become sochi olympic champion.
    Yes,yes and yes.Some judges just love hanyu.
    And please don't use some vulgar insult words to imply they are sadist.They are skating judges and normal people
    We are not allow to insult the skater on this board either.
    Last edited by Elsa G; 12-28-2012 at 09:34 PM.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elsa G View Post
    In my own country,one retired ISU judge referee said hanyu will become world champion after watching his performance first time for TV broadcast of 2012 World Champion.
    I am sure there were a lot of people who said the same thing, myself including. R&J was a masterpiece in terms of choreophraphy, perfect match the skater and the music, adjusted coaching policy, etc. This seaosn he can barely finish his blah progs and yet get scored way higher. He lost the weight again after GPF. How much he needs to lose to satisfy their taste I wonder. The jealousy card is an old lame play that is often used when people have nothing to say on topic. Try again.

  9. #309
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    We allow all opinions on the forum - so let's try to respect each other and not just dismiss them.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    I am sure there were a lot of people who said the same thing, myself including. R&J was a masterpiece in terms of choreophraphy, perfect match the skater and the music, adjusted coaching policy, etc. This seaosn he can barely finish his blah progs and yet get scored way higher. He lost the weight again after GPF. How much he needs to lose to satisfy their taste I wonder.


    I don’t want Hanyu to burn out in just two seasons, his terrific talent deserves much more than this. I want him to have a very long career

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommmy View Post
    Well, at Nationals everyone got PCS boosts, not just Hanyu.
    Even Kozuka's disastrous FP got higher PCS than well performed FP at GPF by 2 points.
    Yes, I think this is pretty obvious. Don’t know why some people don’t see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    Because there is no other way to explain why the prog of a sick kid who needs food was judged higher than his own prog R&J last season. Moreover, it cracked 9 which is not a common thing even in Nationals among way more elite and masterful skaters.
    Then how do you explain that Kozuka’s train wreck LP this year got higher PCS than when he skated much more well last year? Last year he had a better program, skated more well, and got PCS of 81.5. This year he totally bombed his LP but got PCS of 84.4. Then there’s Mura who was always a 7s level skater. He had almost exactly same performance last year but only got PCS of 70.1. He skated very well at TEB and got PCS of 77. Then he did less well at this year’s Nationals and suddenly his PCS went up to 83.5. Don’t know why are you looking at Yuzru alone. It’s obvious that many skaters got higher PCSs at this year’s Japanese Nationals.

    In fact, if you compare Yuzru’s Notre Dame de Paris program to last year’s R&J program, I agree that R&J program is artistically better and deserves higher IN mark. However, PCS is not just about artistry. Yuzru’s skating skills improved a lot from last year. NDDP program also has more transitions than R&J program. NDDP is a more difficult program than both R&J and Takahashi’s LP this year. SS and TR are very important in PCS, and they contribute to Yuzru’s higher PCS this year. Plus, if you think reputation judging and national inflation exist, then I think they apply to everyone including Takahashi, which is why Takahashi got 9.35 in TR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elsa G View Post
    In my own country,one retired ISU judge referee said hanyu will become world champion after watching his performance first time for TV broadcast of 2012 World Champion.Another ISU judge's words of praise made other male skaters' fan jealous,he also said he is a genius and will become a world champion.One of international judges even said she want him become sochi olympic champion.
    Quote Originally Posted by let’s talk View Post
    I am sure there were a lot of people who said the same thing, myself including. R&J was a masterpiece in terms of choreophraphy, perfect match the skater and the music, adjusted coaching policy, etc. This seaosn he can barely finish his blah progs and yet get scored way higher. He lost the weight again after GPF. How much he needs to lose to satisfy their taste I wonder.
    My goodness, Elsa G just gave examples of how some judges think of Yuzru, why do you sound like the judges only like R&J and hate Yuzru’s programs this year? I don’t know much about those judges, but how do you know if they don’t like Yuzru’s programs this season? Maybe they like both R&J and Parisienne Walkways SP, just like many people on this board like both programs. I personally think Yuzru has shown a versatile style in that he can pull off both powerful soundtrack and blues. Plus, there are figure skating experts like Jackie Wong, who was not a fan of Yuzru at all and was not even a fan of Yuzru’s R&J program, but he said Yuzru’s Parisienne Walkways SP will be a classic for years to come and will be rewatched for sure. Just because you don't like Yuzru’s programs this season does not mean everyone else agrees his programs are blah.

    OTOH, most people including Takahashi fans agree that Takahashi’s programs this season are so blah compared to his nice programs last season in terms of choreography, transitions, and artistry. Don’t you think Takahashi deserves better programs?

    And what do you mean that Yuzru “can barely finish his blah progs?” He skated his SP super cleanly three times out of four competions. His LP had some mistakes, but that program is one of the hardest programs in figure skating history. How many skaters can skate his LP cleanly? Even if they lose weight they’re not going to skate it cleanly.
    Last edited by lakeside; 12-29-2012 at 11:21 AM.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Besides that, you could actually argue with the marks. But you didn't - all you did was saying "overscored by 2 points", "underscored by 2 points". But not which exact marks you think were wrong. And if you're going to start the talk about Hanyu being too slow that last 20 seconds again and how that should effect all of his marks... you can give me a nice and simple explanation of how you think Takahashi deserved his ~9.5 in transistions with that program
    Sigh... actually I went at length trying to give an overview of the inadequacy of COP that plays on perception and manipulation of thresholds, that these scores ARE estimates and should not be taken as facts. That GOEs and PCS are always inflated in a national competition and I have used many examples to illustrate this as well described the process and the reasons why. That these biases are unfair in the interest of pure sport, because of agendas/biases are for the interest of the federation and not to ALL others skaters competing. You have either have

    - not read those post
    - incapable of understand them
    - chose to ignore them completely

    I have repeatedly recommend you compare to different sampling of data and standards which shows why this scoring is disproportionately inflated relative to others, as well as relative to his own previous scores based on the actual performance on the day. Especially Hanyu's previous score based on far better performances and better inspired choreography where his PCS were in 6/7s in less than 12 months ago. Even Orser has said Hanyu has poor skating skills a few months ago, not me. In anycase this is my last post on the matter... can't believe this dragged on as long as it did. Hanyu won on paper, Dai won in my heart, lets see how they do at 4CC and worlds with this nice booster.

    re: chloepoco
    I can tell you are incapable of dealing with the topic at hand and decide to use a sneaky attack to undermine me personally, calling JSF evil? LOL... how juvenile, sneaky and how utterly predictable you are.
    Last edited by os168; 12-29-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #313
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Alright, guys, let's try this one more time - posts will continue to be unapproved if all they do is create more insults thrown at each other and do nothing to advance an actual discussion. Put each other on ignore or take your issues to PM. We don't need it muddying up the threads.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    OTOH, most people including Takahashi fans agree that Takahashi’s programs this season are so blah compared to his nice programs last season
    A lot of people thinks Takahashi’s programs last season were better, but not many would say his current programs are "so blah". "So blah" and Takahashi don't belong in one sentence. His last season's programs were absolute masterpieces, yet he wasn't winning. So why to cast pearls before swines? He learned his lesson. Took the music, the judges can understand, made sure his jumps have transitions, in and out, that are necessary to get big GOEs and... voilà!

    The difference between Takahashi and Hanyu is, what they have done with their programs so far. Hanyu still is not into his, watching him I keep wondering what would Takahashi do with that (no Biellmann of course ) Whereas what Takahashi has done with his is... You can go to YT, or Takahashi's fan sites, and read the comments there. I can assure you, many fans are almost fainting just when they hear the world "Pagliacci".

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I agree that R&J program is artistically better and deserves higher IN mark.
    .. and yet his NNDP was scored higher for IN than R&J, i.e. it was overscored. SS and TR are only two segments in PCS, the high score for them makes sense only if they are well performed and not just exist pro forma. The prog that the skater can barely finish is the reuslt of poor coaching policy that doesn't match the skater's needs.
    I don’t know much about those judges, but how do you know if they don’t like Yuzru’s programs this season?
    I never said that judges don't like Yuzu's prog. I said he was overscored, i.e. judges petted his prog and not vice versa.
    OTOH, most people including Takahashi fans agree that Takahashi’s programs this season are so blah compared to his nice programs last season in terms of choreography, transitions, and artistry. Don’t you think Takahashi deserves better programs?
    Same about Yuzu's fans and his progs this season.
    How many skaters can skate his LP cleanly?Even if they lose weight they're not going to skate it cleanly
    Nobody knows that. As well as nobody knows what skater can skate clean this and that skater's prog cleanly, etc.

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