Takahashi and Tran Split

golden411 said:

Do Kharis Ralph/Asher Hill fit this description? I believe that she is of Filipino descent.

ETA:

If CaroLiza_fan's question refers to Asian heritage (as I assume it does?), then I still think that R/H meet the criteria.
As an aside: I just checked their Skate Canada bio, which says that she was born in Washington, DC.

http://skatecanada.ca/Profile/tabid...nce&strbiocategory=Senior Dance&strlanguage=E
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I had no idea.
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You know, Asher was the first person that came into my head when I was thinking about other black skaters. But it never actually dawned on me to look up Kharis.

I never realised that she was of Asian descent (you are right - according to Wikipedia, her Mum is Filipino). Or that she was born in the USA. So, thank you for those pieces of information!

And, yeah, I was referring to heritage as well as place of birth.

Thank you again

CaroLiza_fan

I'm late to the conversation but I am SO BUMMED OUT by this news. I don't really have anything to offer in the way of speculation that hasn't already been said, but in the end I don't even really care why they are splitting up- it stinks either way.

I hope they are both able to find new partners.

CaroLiza_fan said:

Why is nationality so important in individual sports like skating anyway?

I can understand nationality being important in team sports like football, rugby or hockey, where the team is actively representing the country. But in individual (or even pair) sports, nationality should just be a means of describing the athlete.

I am not a sportsperson, so I don’t know how a sportsperson thinks. But, if I was a skater, this is the order of priority I would have for who I was representing:

1. I am competing for myself.
2. I am competing for my coach.
3. I am competing for my choreographer.
4. I am competing for my hometown/home rink.
5. I am competing for my county/province/state.
6. I am competing for my country.


It would be much fairer if each half of the partnership were to have their own nationality displayed in the entry lists. If they get onto the podium, then both flags should be displayed. Of course, this could cause problems in competitions where they have a medal count for each country (such as the Olympics).

So, it would be better if the IOC and the individual sports governing bodies took the attitude that in individual or pairs sports, nationality was to be used merely as a means of describing the sportsperson. Everything is made much more complicated if nationality actually means something.

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The whole nationality thing is exclusively for the Olympics. IOC has this requirement. The ISU has no problem with nationality, which is why Taka/Tran could compete at Worlds. I would agree with your #1-6 skating priority, which I would apply to Worlds and ISU events. With Olympics, I would definitely NOT place country as number 6. Ideally it should be #1 along with skating for yourself. The point of the Olympics is unifying countries and sports together. Athletes are representing their countries in competition to show the world. It's also supposed to be an honour to represent and compete for your country. For casual viewers, they often associate sports with countries that dominate. Speed Skating for South Korea, diving for China. With the olympics, it's just very country orientated. Which is why I believe IOC has this requirement right now. In order to truly represent a country in an event that represents unification, you have to be one of your country's people. It makes sense to me in this way, but I think IOC should leave it to the country's Olympic committee. If they are cool with a foreigner representing them internationally, then it should be cool and end of discussion.

I do agree with your dual nationality comments, although it would not help Taka/Tran at all in their case. But great points. Wish there was some way to pass on these comments to the immigration department. Being from Hong Kong and raised in Canada, it would devastate me to have to choose. I associate myself with both places very well so I can imagine how difficult it must be. Although it seems as though most people end up choosing Japan as I rarely see any Japanese people in my area compared to other Asian ethnicities.

CaroLiza_fan said:

I can understand the Japanese government not giving dual nationality to people without Japanese ancestry. After all, Japan is a small group of islands that are densely populated. There is only a limited amount of space for the people to live, and for crops to be grown to feed these people. So, by all means limit immigration. But, I think the Japanese government should be looking after the descendants of their own people better.

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Actually even that statement is not truly applicable any longer. Japan's facing a major de-population crisis due to some ridiculously low birth rate, and it's doing everything it can think of to increase the rate, which isn't working. (Of course their govt ministers saying stuff like how women are baby making machines doesn't help!) The govt is incredibly worried about the future with too many old people and too few young people, with many women choosing not to work due to discrimination in pay and promotion and so on.

Anyway, back to your point --

I think that Japan believes you're either intrinsically Japanese or not. The way you intrinsically become Japanese is by blood or by living in Japan for so long that you become like Japanese.

And I must note that becoming an American citizen isn't that easy either, unless you're born in America or to American parents. You must get the permanent residency, then wait 5 years (you must live in the States for 5 years) then apply and wait and wait and wait, which can take over a year. Then you go in for a test (citizenship test). If you pass, you are asked to come back for the ceremony where you swear your allegiance to the US.

Of course, the JP way is much longer and complicated, but Tran may be better off not being Japanese after all given the homogeneity of the nation and that he has the rest of his life to think about after his competitive skating career's over.

There are HUGE differences between getting American citizenship and getting Japanese citizenship. First of all, to get Japanese citizenship, you must reside in Japan for a minimum of TEN years before applying while the residence period is only FIVE years for the US. In Japan, you must demonstrate that you read, write and speak Japanese fluently---and that could take far more than 10 years. In the US, you must be able to pass a citizenship test, but the need to speak, read and write English fluently is not required. The biggest difference is that the US allows dual citizenship, so a new citizen can keep the citizenship he/she came in with, and can even acquire other citizenships after becoming a US citizen without losing US citizenship. Not so in Japan---the previous citizenship must be renounced, and obtaining another citizenship automatically causes loss of Japanese citizenship.

chuckm said:

There are HUGE differences between getting American citizenship and getting Japanese citizenship. First of all, to get Japanese citizenship, you must reside in Japan for a minimum of TEN years before applying while the residence period is only FIVE years for the US. In Japan, you must demonstrate that you read, write and speak Japanese fluently---and that could take far more than 10 years. In the US, you must be able to pass a citizenship test, but the need to speak, read and write English fluently is not required. The biggest difference is that the US allows dual citizenship, so a new citizen can keep the citizenship he/she came in with, and can even acquire other citizenships after becoming a US citizen without losing US citizenship. Not so in Japan---the previous citizenship must be renounced, and obtaining another citizenship automatically causes loss of Japanese citizenship.

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I am surprised that this Tran/Japanese-citizhenship stuff is still going on. As if it wasn't clear from the start that his J-citizenship simply won't happen. Still, there is no reason to provide the incorrect information. The residence requirement for obtaining J-citizenship is pretty much the same as in U.S.- has domiciled FIVE years or more. Not ten as you claim. Ten years might apply to the residency when the applicant was residing on a student visa, for example, i.e. without an income or a clear guarantor of such. Then he/she obtained a work visa and applied for PR first, then- for JN. As for reading/speaking/writing/ Japanese fluently, I agree that for some people it might take 10 years or more, even never . Giving up the original citizenship is basically the main if not the only point that stops most of gaijins to apply for J-nationality, besides being treated like gaijin anyway, which in fact can be an advantage sometimes. Take it from someone who knows .

How could I have forgotten Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze? Thanks for adding them to the list.

I remember once when I was riding a taxi through a city. I got to chatting with the cabbie. It turned out he was originally from Yemen. He said that his father was a guest worker in Saudi Arabia for ten years and would never have qualified for Saudi citizenship. (Keep in mind that both Yemen and Saudi Arabia use the same language and have the same majority religion and similar cultures.) But after seven years in the U.S., this cabbie was able to become an American citizen. He married an American and brought up his children here. I'm glad we're able to have such a setup in this country. I understand Japan's inability to welcome all and sundry to their tiny islands with so little arable land, but it's too bad they can't find some way to allow double citizenship. After all, it wouldn't affect a huge number of people. It's not as if the world would descend on them or anything.

Nadia01 said:

Actually even that statement is not truly applicable any longer. Japan's facing a major de-population crisis due to some ridiculously low birth rate, and it's doing everything it can think of to increase the rate, which isn't working. (Of course their govt ministers saying stuff like how women are baby making machines doesn't help!) The govt is incredibly worried about the future with too many old people and too few young people, with many women choosing not to work due to discrimination in pay and promotion and so on.

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Sorry Nadia01, but I have to disagree with the bit about the “major de-population crisis”. When I was doing A-level Geography, Japan was one of the case-studies that we did.

I have just looked at the World Bank statistics for the past decade, and they say that the population in Japan has roughly stayed steady at around 127million (+/-1million) for the past 15 years. So, as yet, there is no “de-population”.

The problem is not that the population is decreasing; the problem is make-up of the population. Usually, a country’s population pyramid starts off wide at the bottom (lots of youngsters) and gradually gets narrower as people get older to a point at the top (not so many elderly). Japan was like this in 1950.

Population Pyramids for Japan (source UN): http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/population-pyramids/images_abs/Japan.png

In 2010, the pyramid for Japan does not follow this pattern until you reach the over 60’s. Between 65 and 35, the population varies between 4 and 5 million for each gender in each age group. And below 35, it gradually decreases down to about 3 million for each gender in the 0-5 age group.

Admittedly, it was about 8 years ago that I finished school, but the population pyramid for 2010 is similar to the 2000 population pyramid we were studying.

So, I agree with you that the aging population is going to cause problems as, if the population continues to change the way they expect, there will be far more older people depending on support, and far less people of working age paying taxes to fund the support.

But that still does not alter the point that I was making. Physically, Japan is a group of mountainous islands where there is a limited amount of space that can actually be utilised for habitation or cultivation. The habitable areas are already densely populated. So, if the population is staying steady (as it has for about 15 years), the Japanese government are hardly going to want an influx of immigrants putting extra pressure on the limited resources. Hence, they are continuing the policy of limiting who can have Japanese citizenship for now.

However, if the population changes in the way that is expected, this approach cannot continue forever. Once the population starts falling, and there are less people of working age to support those that are not economically active (i.e. the old and young), then Japan will have to have a re-think and encourage immigration. And, one way of doing this is relaxing the rules on who can have Japanese citizenship a bit.

So, until we get to that time, I can’t see Japan changing their current policy. But, I still feel that it is wrong to prevent people who are born in Japan or have Japanese ancestry from having dual nationality.

But, this discussion is now getting too far away from the topic of Narumi and Mervin splitting up. So, let’s get back to it!

let`s talk said:

I am surprised that this Tran/Japanese-citizhenship stuff is still going on. As if it wasn't clear from the start that his J-citizenship simply won't happen.

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As “let`s talk” says, under the current rules, Mervin was never going to get citizenship. The point I was trying to make at in my first message in this topic is that in situations like this, where somebody wants to actively do something to help Japan, there should be some lee-way.

chuckm said:

In Japan, you must demonstrate that you read, write and speak Japanese fluently---and that could take far more than 10 years. In the US, you must be able to pass a citizenship test, but the need to speak, read and write English fluently is not required.

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As for the citizenship tests, I think that they are a joke. Put it like this, they have been talking about bringing them in for immigrants who want to live here in the UK. And, looking at the questions that are being proposed, I can guarantee that most of the people who were born and bred in the UK would not be able to answer a lot of them!

More important is insisting that the immigrant is able to speak (and, preferably, read and write) the language of the host country. Like, how can you manage to live somewhere if you can't communicate?

Finally, I think “let`s talk” and “Olympia” have summed up most of the issues raised about nationality/citizenship in this thread perfectly in the last 2 posts. So, perhaps this should be the end of this aspect of the discussion, so that we can concentrate on Mervin and Narumi’s futures.

CaroLiza_fan

In the US, there is no 'official language'. Most of the US speaks English, but there is a significant Spanish-speaking population. In some large cities, there are areas where the majority of the inhabitants speak little or no English. In the NY-NJ area, you can take the written driving test in many languages.

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20121224/fig12122400010000-n1.html

Yesterday, the JSF figure skating director Ito commented on Takahashi's new partner. Selection is underway in preference to Japanese citizens. They want to make a new team until next February when Takahashi can resume training.

NMURA said:

http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20121224/fig12122400010000-n1.html

Yesterday, the JSF figure skating director Ito commented on Takahashi's new partner. Selection is underway in preference to Japanese citizens. They want to make a new team until next February when Takahashi can resume training.

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With this sort of thing, you have to always read between the lines. In this case, this should read as : "We don't want to announce her new partner yet because to do so now will just prove we have been planning for some time but in February or a little later, we will announce it and it will be a Japanese guy."

wallylutz said:

With this sort of thing, you have to always read between the lines. In this case, this should read as : "We don't want to announce her new partner yet because to do so now will just prove we have been planning for some time but in February or a little later, we will announce it and it will be a Japanese guy."

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Bingo!

There are so many talented Japanese men in men's singles. Shame a few cannot try pairs.Quite a few top skaters may not be big enough but Kento Nakamura is listed as 5'9, and Ryuichi Kihara 5'8.

figuristka said:

There are so many talented Japanese men in men's singles. Shame a few cannot try pairs.Quite a few top skaters may not be big enough but Kento Nakamura is listed as 5'9, and Ryuichi Kihara 5'8.

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I hope it would be Kihara. He looks like he has the build and he does not have the jumping ability to move further in his singles career. Nakamura has too bright of a future in singles.

I think this is the kind of situation in which the national federation needs to take the lead. The JSF is a powerful federation, and it should be making pairs training available and encouraging young skaters in that direction. The incentive is simple in Japan: there are not enough singles spots on the national team for every good skater. Six more skaters can go to Worlds in pairs spots.

This might not get Narumi a good partner by 2013, but the next Narumi to come along will have a partner worthy of her skills.

koheikun90 said:

I hope it would be Kihara. He looks like he has the build and he does not have the jumping ability to move further in his singles career. Nakamura has too bright of a future in singles.

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True, Nakamura placed 6th, and seems a good singles skater. Does 6th place make the national team? Kihara would be nice. BTW Nakamura is quite handsome if anyone has not seen him skating. I had not seen him before.

koheikun90 said:

I hope it would be Kihara. He looks like he has the build and he does not have the jumping ability to move further in his singles career. Nakamura has too bright of a future in singles.

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It doesn't matter who it is, it takes years to learn senior elite Pairs skills. Takahashi & Tran competed together for three full seasons on the JGP circuit before winning the silver medal at Jr. Worlds, finishing 15th and 7th in 2008 and 2009 respectively. Whoever Narumi is teamed with will not have the benefit of years of training with a top level Pairs coach, and it will take him time to learn partnering skills as well as the mechanics of lifts and throws.

And in my experience, it actually takes the guy longer to come up to speed than the lady. Isabella Brasseur was making a splash at Canadian Nationals & went to Olympics in 1988 in her first season-it helps to have Lloyd Eisler as a partner.

The only example of a quick study for the man in the pair would be Rodnina Zaitsev-but she didn't do throw jumps...& in general requirements were very different pre 1980.

There is physical strength in the upper body that the guys need to build up that might have been neglected a bit as singles, IMO.

Your statement reminds me of how Yuka Sato became a pairs skater late in her career to skate with her husband, Jason Dunjen. She didn't skate in eligible competitions, but she did skate competitively, and pretty well, too. The thing that pairs ladies have to possess, or somehow attain, is the highest degree of courage in the figure-skating world. The stuff that ladies have to do in lifts these days is closer to being a trapeze artist than it is to anything in singles skating. The fact that Yuka was able to come to terms with all that stuff well into her twenties made me admire her even more than I originally did (which was already quite a lot).

I usually reply to a thread after scanning through before posting - but I'm gonna post first this time: I'm so sad! Their chemistry was SOOOO cute together!

I'm worried now with the Korean ice dance pair with their nationality issues - although this time, the Korean fed is trying to convince the government and ISU, who knows what will happen?