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Thread: Asada, Kim begin road to second Olympic showdown

  1. #61
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naan View Post
    3Lz-3T and 3F-3T!!
    But she doubled her 3Lo, so it's not a clean program.
    Ah well, you're right. Still, there's a lot to appreciate about that program. I do hope she goes for the tough layout because I've come to admire her other qualities.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBtanpTYTY <---- the audience in Nice went wild even though it was "just a 5-triple program." That says something.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Ah well, you're right. Still, there's a lot to appreciate about that program. I do hope she goes for the tough layout because I've come to admire her other qualities.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBtanpTYTY <---- the audience in Nice went wild even though it was "just a 5-triple program." That says something.
    Carolina has one of the best jumps (along with Yuna) when she's on. Her other qualities are amazing, that's why I like her even if she can't skate a clean program.
    I just hope that she goes for tough layout this season as you said. Glad that she brings back 3Lz this season!!

  3. #63
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Carry on.... you are getting more adorable every time you post, clearly a VIP in the Kim's party that makes it the most lively one around. So let's see... quality of execution and performance shouldn't be important, and UR/Wrong edge means even less. Gee... no wonder it explains the poor state of ladies today.

    For the record, Kim's BV during the Olympics was highest on both her SP (34.90 vs 34.40) and LP (60.90 vs 55.86)[/B] compare with Mao,
    so was her TES from her SP(44.70 vs 41.50) and LP (FS: 78.30 vs 65.68) with no negative GOEs. She was clean and put on a performance of a life time. You should give credit where credit is due. Regardless of the NEW adjusted scale value due to the rules changes that seems to design repress one skater and prop another against the better judgement of this sport. She beat Mao fair and square there. Mao now has all the rules and new scale of values in her favour, let's see if she can bring it when it count. All these other talk and hysterics are pretty useless.
    lol those numbers you brought are from the actual performance in Vancouver, where Mao made some mistakes in the fs, so the BV in the fs is useless because that wasn't correct and fully intended layout, well those from the sp are useful because both where clean there, but the BV number you have brought from the fs is useless, when you have to compare the two BV layouts, to see which layout has the highest BV, you have to look only at the BV layout both skaters intend to do, and there you will see that Mao's BV in the FS was 64 (assuming she went clean) Kim FS would have been 60.90 (when clean), meaning Mao had the highest BV in the fs if both where clean there.

    My purpose with mentioning the BV in my previous post, was to show and to remind that kims BV is not that high , it's mostly her goe and PCS that racks her the points, like in Vancouver!

  4. #64
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    If you look at all the scores from Vancouver, it's quite clear thaMao and Joannie were also the beneficiaries of those "generous" goes and pcs in Vancouver olys. The one thing Yuna stood out was that she did everything perfectly with the highest difficulty and quality while Mao and Joannie faltered severely. So what Yuna received in Vancouver is not undeserving at all compared to what Mao and Joannie were given in that event.

  5. #65
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    If you look at all the scores from Vancouver, it's quite clear thaMao and Joannie were also the beneficiaries of those "generous" goes and pcs in Vancouver olys. The one thing Yuna stood out was that she did everything perfectly with the highest difficulty and quality while Mao and Joannie faltered severely. So what Yuna received in Vancouver is not undeserving at all compared to what Mao and Joannie were given in that event.
    well wheter "you" think that yuna had the highest difficulty and quality doesn't change the fact that Mao's layout had the highest BV between the two (assuming both having a clean skate), and it also doesn't change the point I was making earlier, which was that it's mostly the Goe and PCS where kim racks points, that's an undeniable fact!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    well wheter "you" think that yuna had the highest difficulty and quality doesn't change the fact that Mao's layout had the highest BV between the two (assuming both having a clean skate), and it also doesn't change the point I was making earlier, which was that it's mostly the Goe and PCS where kim racks points, that's an undeniable fact!
    Mao had a higher planned BV between the two, but Yu-Na had the higher executed BV. Even had you taken away all the GOEs and PCS from the Olympic games, and judged it solely on executed BV, Yu-Na still wins (Mao only lost a half-point for the DG on the 3F/2lo/2lo). You seem to cling to the fact that Yu-Na had a lower planned BV as if it means something (what?), while discounting the fact that that Mao's mistakes meant her higher planned BV took a real hit.

    If you want to keep arguing that having a higher planned BV is more significant than what your executed BV and the positive/negative GOE you earn based on how you executed everything...then basically you are giving the most credit to the skater who submits the more difficult planned element sheet to the judges.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    well wheter "you" think that yuna had the highest difficulty and quality doesn't change the fact that Mao's layout had the highest BV between the two (assuming both having a clean skate), and it also doesn't change the point I was making earlier, which was that it's mostly the Goe and PCS where kim racks points, that's an undeniable fact!
    I'm really sick and tired of some post about past. I want to talk about Sochi. How players will do well based on "NOW" and "Possiblilily of Improvement".

    You just talk about Mao based on 2010 Olympic and WC, but how was she from 2009 to now? Yes, she is one of top skaters, but she was best when she was young (Untill 2007~2008 season)

    Please, i want to discuss about future;;;

  8. #68
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao had a higher planned BV between the two, but Yu-Na had the higher executed BV. Even had you taken away all the GOEs and PCS from the Olympic games, and judged it solely on executed BV, Yu-Na still wins (Mao only lost a half-point for the DG on the 3F/2lo/2lo). You seem to cling to the fact that Yu-Na had a lower planned BV as if it means something (what?), while discounting the fact that that Mao's mistakes meant her higher planned BV took a real hit.

    If you want to keep arguing that having a higher planned BV is more significant than what your executed BV and the positive/negative GOE you earn based on how you executed everything...then basically you are giving the most credit to the skater who submits the more difficult planned element sheet to the judges.
    What matters the most is HOW A SKATER IMAGINES HER ROUTINE TO BE. How she ACTUALLY does is utterly immaterial.

  9. #69
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    well wheter "you" think that yuna had the highest difficulty and quality doesn't change the fact that Mao's layout had the highest BV between the two (assuming both having a clean skate), and it also doesn't change the point I was making earlier, which was that it's mostly the Goe and PCS where kim racks points, that's an undeniable fact!
    No one's denying that. Who says otherwise? Her BV might not be the highest, but it was certainly one of the highest, and the way she executed was everyone's dream-come-true.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao had a higher planned BV between the two, but Yu-Na had the higher executed BV. Even had you taken away all the GOEs and PCS from the Olympic games, and judged it solely on executed BV, Yu-Na still wins (Mao only lost a half-point for the DG on the 3F/2lo/2lo). You seem to cling to the fact that Yu-Na had a lower planned BV as if it means something (what?), while discounting the fact that that Mao's mistakes meant her higher planned BV took a real hit.

    If you want to keep arguing that having a higher planned BV is more significant than what your executed BV and the positive/negative GOE you earn based on how you executed everything...then basically you are giving the most credit to the skater who submits the more difficult planned element sheet to the judges.
    Yes, that's every skating fan's dream.

  10. #70
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao had a higher planned BV between the two, but Yu-Na had the higher executed BV. Even had you taken away all the GOEs and PCS from the Olympic games, and judged it solely on executed BV, Yu-Na still wins (Mao only lost a half-point for the DG on the 3F/2lo/2lo). You seem to cling to the fact that Yu-Na had a lower planned BV as if it means something (what?), while discounting the fact that that Mao's mistakes meant her higher planned BV took a real hit.

    If you want to keep arguing that having a higher planned BV is more significant than what your executed BV and the positive/negative GOE you earn based on how you executed everything...then basically you are giving the most credit to the skater who submits the more difficult planned element sheet to the judges.
    I am not giving any credit, just stating the facts as they are nothing more and nothing less!

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    Sorry Mao/YuNa fans... all this arguing is for nothing because Adelina is going to win Sochi gold.

  12. #72
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Sorry Mao/YuNa fans... all this arguing is for nothing because Adelina is going to win Sochi gold.
    There it is!

  13. #73
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    ^LOL!

    I think that'd be awesome! And what's funny is, that's not too far of a stretch. Vancouver was the only time in a loooong time where the person who was expected to win actually won.

    If the stars aligned (which they sometimes do at the Olympics) Adelina could go in under less pressure, have the skate of her life, scare the bejesus out of everyone else and end up winning gold! :D

    IDK but in skating, much much stranger things have happened.

    As for the Mao versus Yu-Na situation, I think it's clear that both are question marks right now.

    Yu-Na doesn't seem to have lost her jumps in her absence but who knows how she'll hold up? That hungry motivation she had in Vancouver has be sated, so she's had to find something else to motivate her...will it be enough to get her back to where she used to be? How is her consistency? Yu-Na has never been known for being 100% clean; she's had a very solid 3-3 which usually gives her a lead going into the LP and she's able to have a mistake or two and still come out on top. What are the chances she'll be able to replicate the perfection she achieved in Vancouver?

    Mao's jumps have declined in recent years. I don't doubt she's still capable of executing 3-3s and that 3A but the issue is she hasn't produced one in competition in a very long time. In skating your potential to do something counts for nothing...it's all about what you do at go-time and right now, Mao is struggling technically. Everything else is wonderful. Her spins are great, her footwork, programs, etc. but without the jumps, she's in trouble. I hope she's able to get back to where she was but she's not getting any younger.

    I think this showdown b/w Mao and Yu-Na is awesome! I like a little drama mixed in and nothing is better than old rivals rekindling a rivalry.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    My purpose with mentioning the BV in my previous post, was to show and to remind that kims BV is not that high , it's mostly her goe and PCS that racks her the points, like in Vancouver!
    Yeah except Kim 100% delivery her BV that time have have generally been close to it consider the level of difficulties in her programs. When is the last time Mao did this? Her TES in the last 3 seasons have been consistently well below what her 'ideal' BV. She has consistently over promised, under deliver the technical content. I personally think anyone under deliver what they set out to do should be penalize more, there should be a proportionate risk and reward system. Otherwise everyone might as well as go for the biggest BV, then close their eyes, fingers cross, hoping they will get lucky! And given how PCS are inaccurately awarded, these major failures are hardly registered in the system for reputable skaters which makes the whole judging system even more wack.

    That is why I find the PCS and GOEs rule changes extremely questionable and somewhat ridiculous. While GOEs are reduced by 30% to lessen penalty for under rotations, it makes wrong edge are almost negligible as well, especially compares previous of the Olympics. Which is fine for the quads since it was designed to incentivise, but why should it apply to all other jumps even doubles? Why did they ALSO reduce 30% reward to someone who CAN actually do fully rotated jumps properly but did not compensate/redistributed the marks to the jump's base value? Surely quality should count more in this sport? PCS marking have been suffering from cognitive psychology problem with its the latency effect means judges are not always mark what the skaters did ON THE DAY but base more on impressions and reputations.

    The ridiculous 'logic' behind how PCS are awarded is really pathetic and feeble at best; highly theoretical and worthless in practice. It renders the principle of good presentation or the holistic value of a well conceived program (Intellectual, Creative, and Emotional qualities) impotent and goes against the very principles of good performance art which it is designed to reward. It shows why delusional self appointed mathematicians should have no business trying to proportionate anything to do with artistry since not having the proper knowledge or background shows their incompetence and unfamiliarity in this matter.

    How can intended choreography done with several major mistakes however minor or major not affect the overall presentation, choreography, interpretation, performance/execution mark and not shows weakness in the skills of a skater on the day? Is jumps not an integral part of the choreography and performance/execution? In every other performance art competition, misread your lines, miss cues/timing, missed out the proper arrangement and unable to deliver what it says on the brochure/script/score, missed even a note or chords here and there could certainly be the death of performance and the difference between winning and loosing. It should especially affects the overall impressions of a precision sport, that is suppose to reward accuracy and high success rate. Instead it is now seems to be used as place holders, where the difference between 1 small mistakes or 5 major mistakes hardly made much of a difference proportionally in the PCS, since it variables of +-0.25 and +-0.5 is are generally accepted by consensus among the judges which makes a very narrow corridor that made the the number of mistakes almost negligible. Add judge's own biases in the mix, now you have some weird marking for those skaters with strong federation and with reputation and how much they can get away from under performing, vs a nobody who have 100% deliver what she set out to do on the day.
    Last edited by os168; 12-20-2012 at 12:31 PM.

  15. #75
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    As for the Mao versus Yu-Na situation, I think it's clear that both are question marks right now.
    I totally agree! Of course, I also think that other skaters including Adelina are equally or even more 'question marks' in terms of where they will be and how they will perform at Sochi.

    This person who writes for The Japan Times is very provincial imo. It must be his juvenile attempt at 15-minutes of fame or something.

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