Asada, Kim begin road to second Olympic showdown

Daniel5555 said:

Adelina for me is already a very top skater for the reasons you mentioned, but I think that, generally, others also have something special about them. Meanwhile her jump problems at that age is not something that should be taken lightly. I mean, I don't deny that she is great, but marking her as the only potential gold threat is simply wrong, that's what I'm trying to say.

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There are many very good Russian ladies, but to me Adelina has the most potential to be a legend. If I were a judge and all the top ladies skated clean with an identical BV, I would mark Adelina very close to Mao and YuNa. Mao has the best footwork and transitions, YuNa has the best jumps and overall skating skills, and Adelina has the best spins and huge jumps as well.

drivingmissdaisy said:

There are many very good Russian ladies, but to me Adelina has the most potential to be a legend. If I were a judge and all the top ladies skated clean with an identical BV, I would mark Adelina very close to Mao and YuNa. Mao has the best footwork and transitions, YuNa has the best jumps and overall skating skills, and Adelina has the best spins and huge jumps as well.

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I think this can be really a question of personal preferences My favorite among young Russian skaters is Liza, so probably I would be inclined to see her as having most potential among them to be anything. Julia seems to be a favorite to many people as well, I've seen a lot of people saying that she's the best.

FlattFan said:

It is not as rare as a unicorn.
I know she has the potential to do it at the current moment, judging from what she did in practice a few days ago. All there, she just have to put it together.

The point wasn't loathers had done it. The point is if she does it, how wide the gap between her and the other ladies will be. I couldn't think of a single person who can beat a clean 7-triples kostner at this point in her career.

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Well consider at her latest competition attempt she failed even the minimum TES requirement and had just 1 clean 3T, I am not so optimistic. I do look forward to Europeans Championships to see if this could just be a fluke. However if the standard of judging continues like this and reward her high PCS regardless of how she performs on the day (She got higher PCS with this performance than Akiko at NHK), this system of judging would seems terribly wrong.

Carolina's weakness currently is in the short. Her SP will not allow her to touch a clean Yuna. Yuna's SP ceiling is extremely high, with all levels maxed and a clean performance she's likely to score 75 points at Worlds. I would not be surprised if her PCS goes higher than Vancouver, since PCS have been trending up in recent years. The SP has always given her a comfortable cushion for mistakes in the free skate.

If Carolina does 3F+3T and solo 3Lz in the SP, she'll have a chance at catching up to Yuna. But if her SP is 5+ points below Yuna, she'll be lucky to beat her even with a clean 7-triple program.

os168 said:

Well consider at her latest competition attempt she failed even the minimum TES requirement and had just 1 clean 3T, I am not so optimistic. I do look forward to Europeans Championships to see if this could just be a fluke. However if the standard of judging continues like this and reward her high PCS regardless of how she performs on the day (She got higher PCS with this performance than Akiko at NHK), this system of judging would seems terribly wrong.

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The thing that seems terribly wrong is not the system, but your understanding of it, because PCS are independent from TES. Carolina always had superb skating skills, transitions and generally everything that constitutes PCS. No matter how bad she did with jumps, everything else was mostly there and could hardly go away. The PCS she received are perfectly in line with her abilities.
So, no, this system of judgement would not "seems" terribly wrong.

mary01 said:

I don't want to spoil the kim party here, but through her PCS has always been high, when it comes to the technical elements there was NOTHING in her layout that really stood out as exceptional, the only reason why her tech is so high is because she is gifted with big goe, which was and still is enough to cover the mistakes she usuelly makes in her program. Her technical base value is not that high and her non-jump elements are all over the place in terms of levels, so what keeps her scores high is the huge PCS and goe she receives!


the funny thing for me is that you guys seem to have forgotten the actual performance of kim due to her high score, she has alot of work to do on every part of her skating her spins, steps, stamina, flexibility, edgework........

Another thing is that some of you seem to think of Kim performance at vancouver as something unbeautable, well through she received an outrages score there, if one looks at her techical BV, once again it wasn't really that high but it once again the goe that she received that made her score alot higher.

After the vancouver games some of the flaws of COP where corrected, one of them was reducing the amount og goe, so the same performance at vancouver would not score anywhere near today!

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Here is Guidlines for marking +GOE.

After reading this, you can understand why she get so high GOE.

FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

There are several things that usually Kim are satisfied. (In 2009~2010 Season)

1) step seq + Jump
Inna baur + Jump
spread Igeal + Jump ect

2) exception 3-3 combination, 3lz, 3f,
It is hard to recognize where is enterance.

3) she is already known for delayed jump.(NBC made some video about it)

4) Well known - many commentator already said about it.

5) she is already known for delayed jump.(NBC made some video about it)

6) Just watch video, she has amazing speed.

7) Also Well known - many commentator already said about it.

8) Also Well known - many commentator already said about it.

If you have another opinion, it is okay to reply on it.
Before you said about GOE, it is good to see this page.
I always go there and study to understand new judge system

I don't want say about other's favorite player.(It could be harsh)
How about to judge your favorite player???

I just say about Kim, but Karolina also has good jumps (If she is "on")

Daniel5555 said:

The thing that seems terribly wrong is not the system, but your understanding of it, because PCS are independent from TES. Carolina always had superb skating skills, transitions and generally everything that constitutes PCS. No matter how bad she did with jumps, everything else was mostly there and could hardly go away. The PCS she received are perfectly in line with her abilities.
So, no, this system of judgement would not "seems" terribly wrong.

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In theory they are, but not in reality. Technical mistakes can and do affect transitions, interpretation, execution, performance, etc. especially when the technical elements are an integral part of the choreography and interpretation. Expression, choreography, etc. these are not separate elements that stand apart from jumps, spins or steps--if they do it's a very poorly constructed program.

So if Carolina has a meltdown like Vancouver several of her component scores can justifiably be marked down compared to her cleaner performances.

Daniel5555 said:

The thing that seems terribly wrong is not the system, but your understanding of it, because PCS are independent from TES. Carolina always had superb skating skills, transitions and generally everything that constitutes PCS. No matter how bad she did with jumps, everything else was mostly there and could hardly go away. The PCS she received are perfectly in line with her abilities.
So, no, this system of judgement would not "seems" terribly wrong.

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I agree that PCS are independent from TES, and Carolina is a great skater who deserves to get huge PCS. But I have to admit that her PCS at Golen Spin was a bit overrated. Great skating skills, but she was very slower than usual, poor transitions (her program is empty!), I'd not give her high marks on performance-execution / interpretation / choreography. Having said that it was the B competition which is very generous to skaters, so I'm OK with that.
What I don't like and can't stand is Carolina usually wins thanks to her huge PCS. I read somewhere that 70-80% of her winning is due to her PCS (funny thing is it's 2-3 times more than Patrick Chan) Don't get me wrong, I like Caro, she's very talented. But I don't want to see skaters winning thanks to their huge PCS. It's a sports, not a dance event!

Krislite said:

In theory they are, but not in reality. Technical mistakes can and do affect transitions, interpretation, execution, performance, etc. especially when the technical elements are an integral part of the choreography and interpretation. Expression, choreography, etc. these are not separate elements that stand apart from jumps, spins or steps--if they do it's a very poorly constructed program.

So if Carolina has a meltdown like Vancouver several of her component scores can justifiably be marked down compared to her cleaner performances.

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According to descriptions in ISU rules even the component called "Performance/Execution" generally is assumed to be separate from jumps. Of course, errors on jumps will affect the overall impression of the program and somehow will affect PCS too, but by rules each element should be scored one time only, so the skaters should not receive several rewards or deductions for the same thing.
Spins, steps, etc., are quite different from jumps in that matter, because transitions, skating skills, etc., are parts of step/choreography sequences, so here this principle of separation doesn't really work, but PCS should be the overall score of all those elements, while TES evaluates each separately.

The point is that, however, jumps should not affect PCS unless after making an error it affected skater's performance after the jump itself.

naan said:

I agree that PCS are independent from TES, and Carolina is a great skater who deserves to get huge PCS. But I have to admit that her PCS at Golen Spin was a bit overrated. Great skating skills, but she was very slower than usual, poor transitions (her program is empty!), I'd not give her high marks on performance-execution / interpretation / choreography. Having said that it was the B competition which is very generous to skaters, so I'm OK with that.
What I don't like and can't stand is Carolina usually wins thanks to her huge PCS. I read somewhere that 70-80% of her winning is due to her PCS (funny thing is it's 2-3 times more than Patrick Chan) Don't get me wrong, I like Caro, she's very talented. But I don't want to see skaters winning thanks to their huge PCS. It's a sports, not a dance event!

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I would be cautious in evaluating her performance at Zagreb, because personally I didn't see a good video with it. On what I saw, I can't really conclude whether or not it was truly the score she had to receive. But it wasn't an unusual score for her.
I do understand why people don't like when someone wins by PCS, because, first of all, it is always more subjective than TES and then PCS are simply not very impressive compared to jumps. The problem is that polishing skating skills and transitions requires a lot of work and talent, almost the same amount as for jumps. This is why so many people don't get Patrick Chan or Carolina Kostner (heck, I myself don't really get Patrick that much)... But the system has to be balanced somehow and it would be unfair to break the balance in favor of jumps, I guess. It doesn't help that judges generally tend to be generous with PCS and that, unlike TES, PCS doesn't vary so much - you can have a bad day and make tons of mistakes on jumps, but you can't forget your skating skills.
I guess we still have to accept this, because changing this fragile balance would affect figure skating very much and, probably, not for good.

mary01, so in your opinion who in the ladies field deserves high(er than Yuna's) GOEs on jumps?

Daniel5555 said:

I would be cautious in evaluating her performance at Zagreb, because personally I didn't see a good video with it. On what I saw, I can't really conclude whether or not it was truly the score she had to receive. But it wasn't an unusual score for her.
I do understand why people don't like when someone wins by PCS, because, first of all, it is always more subjective than TES and then PCS are simply not very impressive compared to jumps. The problem is that polishing skating skills and transitions requires a lot of work and talent, almost the same amount as for jumps. This is why so many people don't get Patrick Chan or Carolina Kostner (heck, I myself don't really get Patrick that much)... But the system has to be balanced somehow and it would be unfair to break the balance in favor of jumps, I guess. It doesn't help that judges generally tend to be generous with PCS and that, unlike TES, PCS doesn't vary so much - you can have a bad day and make tons of mistakes on jumps, but you can't forget your skating skills.
I guess we still have to accept this, because changing this fragile balance would affect figure skating very much and, probably, not for good.

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The quality of that video was not good, so it's hard to judge whether or not it was deserving. Given that it was the B competition and Caro was superior to anyone in that competition, I'm fine with her PCS.
I was complaining about win by PCS, but the irony is that I still like Caro and love Patrick even though they make many mistakes and take golds thanks to their huge PCS, lol. I don't want to see win by PCS, but I don't like to see jumping bean's winning, either. LOL.

japanice said:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/sp20121219it.html

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Kim Sun Young of Yu Na's management agency, All That Sports, informed Ice Time in an email from Seoul on Monday that a decision on her participation on the Four Continents will come next month.
"She hasn't decided to go Osaka yet. I can tell you in January if she will compete at Four CC or not," the email stated.
Kim Sun Young confirmed that Yu Na will next lace up her skates for the Korean nationals (Jan. 4-6).

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I hope Yuna goes to 4CC, she needs to experience big competition before Worlds.

BTW that picture of Yuna is... Great air position, though!

naan said:

The quality of that video was not good, so it's hard to judge whether or not it was deserving. Given that it was the B competition and Caro was superior to anyone in that competition, I'm fine with her PCS.
I was complaining about win by PCS, but the irony is that I still like Caro and love Patrick even though they make many mistakes and take golds thanks to their huge PCS, lol. I don't want to see win by PCS, but I don't like to see jumping bean's winning, either. LOL.




I hope Yuna goes to 4CC, she needs to experience big competition before Worlds.

BTW that picture of Yuna is... Great air position, though!

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That's a very interesting development. Yuna's agency had been rather firm up until now that she was only competing at NRW Trophy, Korean Nationals and Worlds. Now they've publicly acknowledged that Yuna is seriously considering 4CC? She's definitely more serious about this season than in 2010-2011.

I think it would be a great boost for her to compete in another high-profile international event before Worlds. She does have nationals, but that's hardly a "competition" for her.

Yuna's story is pretty much the same but Mao is radically different with no ability to do triple Axels anymore or no ability to do more than 4 triples in a free skate. Mao is terrible at jumps now and would have to go to Sochi as the great artistic skater with severe jump impairments but her sky high pcs and spin and step levels can make triple jumps mostly meaningless.

FlattFan said:

Kostner with a 7 triples will blow Kim out of the water.
If she skates a clean 7 triples, you think the judges will give Kim with 6 triples a win? This is Kostner, not Tuktamisheva.

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So show me this mythical Perfect LP by CaroK with 7 triples.

ANY top skater who skates PERFECT with 7 triples can beat Yuna. The key being PERFECT SKATE WITH 7 TRIPLES (don't forget PERFECT SP with 3Lz,3T [or 3L] and 3F and 2A [3A]). When was the last time we saw one of those?

So please show me who did this mythical perfect programs that "blew" Kim's Vancouver performance.

The skaters most likely to show up with 7 triples probably wouldn't have the pcs if they weren't Kim. Whoever shows up with like 8's in pcs will win. Triples have not mattered for 3 seasons now. Pcs matters more then jumps.

Consistency matters more at the Olympics- people want to see a rather clean performance win at this biggest event. It's possible that Mao could have a "clean" skate- no falls- but she's likely to be dinged with more deductions than Yuna, who possesses cleaner technique. And with an overall rise in PCS (except for Liza, damnit!), I doubt Yuna's would be hurt by other's rise. Plus she got a level 4 in steps at NRW, a first, but it's a start. So Yuna is still the one to beat in Sochi.
As for Caro's fabled 7 triple clean free, it would get a monstrous score, but it's as likely as Yuna getting her loop back. And if she did, she would get positive goe, and would free her to do her own 7 triple program. Note CoR '07, when she set a world record. Don't be surprised if a clean 7 triple Yuna gets 140+ today. Caro would never "blow" it out of the water, unless Speedy says so.

Don't know when was the last time Carolina went clean with seven triples in the free skate, but Yuna herself has done it several times in her earlier career:

2005 GPF

2006 Korean Nationals

2007 Cup of Russia

If we're going to compare highest potential to highest potential, it might be more fair to consider a 7-triple Yuna (which has actually happened before) vs. a 7-triple Carolina.

Krislite said:

If we're going to compare highest potential to highest potential, it might be more fair to consider a 7-triple Yuna (which has actually happened before) vs. a 7-triple Carolina.

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A 7 triple Yuna will beat a 7 triple Carolina. Yuna would have many more lutzes. May not beat a 7 triple (with 3A) Mao.
A 7 triple Carolina will beat a 6 triple Yuna, Mao.
A 7 triple Mao will beat 6 triple Yuna, Carolina.

All 3 are creme de la creme for ladies.

I generally prefer Carolina programs over the other two, but the other two are technically better.

Carolina did it at 2003 Europeans

Layout
3L
3Z-3T
3F-3T
2A-3S
3L

This was pre COP when I guess you could opt to do less jumping passes. Still Carolina has done seven triples at one point, so it's not a myth (or rare as a unicorn, as Flattfan would say).

ETA:

Of course this layout would be quite tough to do under COP. She would have to do like two double jumps like a 2A and a 2Z for example.

Mrs. P said:

Carolina did it at 2003 Europeans

Layout
3L
3Z-3T
3F-3T
2A-3S
3L

This was pre COP when I guess you could opt to do less jumping passes. Still Carolina has done seven triples at one point, so it's not a myth (or rare as a unicorn, as Flattfan would say).

ETA:

Of course this layout would be quite tough to do under COP. She would have to do like two double jumps like a 2A and a 2Z for example.

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3Lz-3T and 3F-3T!!
But she doubled her 3Lo, so it's not a clean program.