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Thread: Asada, Kim begin road to second Olympic showdown

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    How can intended choreography done with several major mistakes however minor or major not affect the overall presentation, choreography, interpretation, performance/execution mark and not shows weakness in the skills of a skater on the day?
    Those mistakes are compensated for in TES, and PCS is not intended to measure success or failure in technical elements. This is why it took me a long to to grasp why someone like Chan could win with several mistakes. But based on the system, he should. I don't like that PCS can give you a several fall buffer against other top competitors, but the ISU has decided not to penalize errors as much as I would if I made the system. PCS really shouldn't vary much based on falls or mistakes because those moments only account for a few seconds of a four minute program. As long as the other 3:55 is skated as planned the marks should reflect that.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Those mistakes are compensated for in TES, and PCS is not intended to measure success or failure in technical elements. This is why it took me a long to to grasp why someone like Chan could win with several mistakes. But based on the system, he should. I don't like that PCS can give you a several fall buffer against other top competitors, but the ISU has decided not to penalize errors as much as I would if I made the system. PCS really shouldn't vary much based on falls or mistakes because those moments only account for a few seconds of a four minute program. As long as the other 3:55 is skated as planned the marks should reflect that.
    Yes I understand the argument but disagrees it in principle. It is about disproportionate quantification without scientific or mathematical basis. It is like false maths and false art judging moonlight as a credible judging system that is suppose to accurately reward technical marks (which fails with reduced GOEs) and artistry.

    While you may consider these qualitative components only consist of few seconds equivalent during the program, but when you consider the amount of 'effort' and the 'value' of these components are integrated to the other 3m55sec as well especially when it is a multiple of major errors that disturbed the presentation of the program. These critical components are the life blood that impact on the overall presentation. Surely they deserve to weigh heavily than 0.25, 0.5 narrow set of corridor for PCS, especially when factor it in during the SP (0.8 factors for ladies), it matters even less. Let's say tomorrow we are blessed with an amazing newbie from nowhere who just did perfect 10 with her SP along with the best artistry we have ever seen, and certainly the best at the event, do you think she deserve more than just +0.25 across the board in PCS. And what does that worth exactly?

    0.25 x 5 x 0.8 (factoring) = 1.0 points
    That would only works out 1 measly points to be gain in PCS for the rare perfectly executed program by a newbie without federation support. Does that sound right, fair or just?

    As a newbie, her GOEs are likely to be conservatively marked as well. The reduced 30% GOE values is huge and messed up with the TES scoring over all since it is suppose to reward good quality and penalize poor quality, now with factoring, and human error, it get even more murky. It doesn't help when the judges are rewarding GOE with even less strictly over all these days. Regardless of protocols and bullet points of how you are a suppose to reward GOEs, it seems a reputable skater generally get get like -1, 0 for mistakes, maybe -1, -2 for falls, while someone like Liza or Akiko might will get -2, -3s generally for not being federation favs. For example at GPF, Mao only got -0.2 for under rotating her 3flip and Ashley only got -0.3 deduction for her 3lz with edge call. These 2 are clearly going to have high PCS anyway which can more than compensate for mistakes compare with the newbies who just did perfect 10 with no federation support, or reputation. One would like to think if the system been designed correctly, the newbie would have won on her own merit and what has been performed on the day. The fact she can't win says a lot about this sport, and why someone might be put off by it.

    The thing is I feel the judges should perhaps use their own common sense to adjust the PCS corridor to something beyond +- 0.25 to +-0.5 consensus to reflect more accurately on how the skater actually skated ON THE DAY. May be to something like +-0.5 to -+2 corridor instead at their own discretion. By expanding the consensus corridor, they can compensate the inadequacy of the TES risk rewards due to reduced scale of GOEs, that despite it is suppose to be reward technical merit marks, they made UR/Wrong edge/Qualitative standards virtually negligible over all. Cheated jumps should be more penalized more, Perfect jump from a nobody should be rewarded more regardless, otherwise how are sporting qualities ever going to improve and give the new kids half a chance?
    Last edited by os168; 12-20-2012 at 10:25 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Ah well, you're right. Still, there's a lot to appreciate about that program. I do hope she goes for the tough layout because I've come to admire her other qualities.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBtanpTYTY <---- the audience in Nice went wild even though it was "just a 5-triple program." That says something.
    era of thinking jumps are impressive in ladies skating is over.

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    More than that - can't it be said a skater has significantly better interpretation than transitions? Or skating skills vs choreography?

    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    If you look at all the scores from Vancouver, it's quite clear thaMao and Joannie were also the beneficiaries of those "generous" goes and pcs in Vancouver olys. The one thing Yuna stood out was that she did everything perfectly with the highest difficulty and quality while Mao and Joannie faltered severely. So what Yuna received in Vancouver is not undeserving at all compared to what Mao and Joannie were given in that event.
    The scoring in Vancouver was generous, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. When Lepisto scored 126, you realize just what sort of night it was gonna be. Yeah, if Asada was perfect she would've had higher base value, but she still would've been behind on GOEs and PCS, and fairly so. But Asada wasn't perfect, and her errors lowered her base value (and GOE). And Kim skated her difficult program perfectly.

    And speaking of awesome, 7-triple skates, how about Joannie Rochette? Nationals 2009 and 2010 (you can see the latter on CBC, not youtube, alas). I'd argue Rochette's "Aranjuez" is as beautifully choreographed as anything Kim or Kostner has done.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 12-20-2012 at 08:20 PM.

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    I just keep wondering if Pyeongyang had not won the bid would Yuna be even considering returning to competition???

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    I think so. She's not gonna be competing in 2018, and her commitment to Pyeongyang is arguably hindering her ability to compete now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Kostner with a 7 triples will blow Kim out of the water.
    If she skates a clean 7 triples, you think the judges will give Kim with 6 triples a win? This is Kostner, not Tuktamisheva.
    Let me put it to you simply. Kostner would never score 150 points in a LP, or close to 80 points in a SP no matter how well she skated. End of.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    More than that - can't it be said a skater has significantly better interpretation than transitions? Or skating skills vs choreography?



    The scoring in Vancouver was generous, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. When Lepisto scored 126, you realize just what sort of night it was gonna be. Yeah, if Asada was perfect she would've had higher base value, but she still would've been behind on GOEs and PCS, and fairly so. But Asada wasn't perfect, and her errors lowered her base value (and GOE). And Kim skated her difficult program perfectly.
    Yes, I love Asada's musical quality and her determination, but on that night in Vancouver, no one could touch YuNa. She was stupendous, and she deserved the gold medal.

  9. #84
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    Please remember to keep your posts about what's being said and do not go after the poster with personal jabs. Bullying language will not be tolerated. A few posts have been unapproved as they have nothing to do with anything being discussed.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think so. She's not gonna be competing in 2018, and her commitment to Pyeongyang is arguably hindering her ability to compete now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    I just keep wondering if Pyeongyang had not won the bid would Yuna be even considering returning to competition???
    I think it's a stop gap. The Korean Skating Federation has been actively working toward having top notch skaters -- just look at the junior ranks. In the JGP, you had three medals for Korea, including one gold. In addition you have a new S. Korean Ice Team coached by the same team who coached the winner of this year's JGPF.

    I believe they will have competitors by 2018, but they need someone who can keep Korea in the public eye until those junior skaters rise up to the senior ranks. Enter Yuna Kim.

  11. #86
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    Sorry but while pyongyang would be interesting it's peyongcheng

  12. #87
    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    I just keep wondering if Pyeongyang had not won the bid would Yuna be even considering returning to competition???
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think so. She's not gonna be competing in 2018, and her commitment to Pyeongyang is arguably hindering her ability to compete now.
    Wrong Korean city in the wrong Korean nation, guys.
    Last edited by aftertherain; 12-21-2012 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Sorry but while pyongyang would be interesting it's peyongcheng

    Actually, it's pyeongchang

  14. #89
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    I knew something didn't make sense.

  15. #90
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    Maybe Korea's new president (Ms.) Park Geun-hye is planning to hold some Olympic events in the North as part of a dramatic new goodwill initiative.

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