Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 41

Thread: Patrick Chan's Coaching Choice, Is It Wise?

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Another 2 cents - Skate Canada - specifically Mike Slipchuk has to step up to the plate and speak with both Patrick Chan and Kathy Johnson. The conversation Mr. Slipchuk has to have with Kathy Johnson is to be open and say - Ms. Johnson - now that you have been through the GP series with Patrick - do you think that you have all the tools / resources necessary to take Patrick to the next level? It's nothing personal but a legitimate question. And then Mr. Slipchuk has to talk to Patrick and say - if you want to continue to have total control of your training - as an athlete show me the plan all the way to Sochi.
    Love this!

    However, Skate Canada is not like Russians and Chinese, or even Japanese. Skate Canada doesn't interfere or involve with skaters' training and coaching details.

    I think the only chance is if Patrick stops defending Kathy Johnson and truly wakes up, which means not being afraid of putting strain on his personal relationships. Will he do that?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 12-19-2012 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #17
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Love this!

    However, Skate Canada is not like Russians and Chinese, or even Japanese. Skate Canada doesn't interfere or involve with skaters' training and coaching details.
    Hmmm - perhaps I was being a little too honest, LOL....

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Hmmm - perhaps I was being a little too honest, LOL....
    Good laugh! We all need it!

    Love is blind. If Patrick hadn't put Kathy Johnson in charge as a primary coach, he could go on with his private life without affecting his career. Now he has to choose between his career and his good personal relationship. Given what we've read about Kathy Johnson, I don't think she will step back herself in anytime (only wish she could), or be completely happy with being dethroned a "glorious" hat. So it's entirely up to Patrick for what to do. Very tough situation for him! But it was his own stupid doing.

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I'm kind of mixed on this. Yes, his consistency is not as good on the jumps now but he's never been all that consistent anyway. His recent record of not winning is due in part to Dai and Hanyu skating much better than before. So I don't necessarily blame his coach for the regression in his technical content. Having said that, I can't see how Kathy and her very limited background in skating can help Patrick make the improvements that he now needs to make to regain his top form, because he is going to have to skate better than he is now to win gold in Sochi.
    This mirrors my sentiment; it's not like Patrick skated close to perfect all of last year, he's never been the most consistent of skaters. It's mostly that he has a lot less room for error now, so I don't really think its her fault that he isn't winning everything. The chances of a single competitor skating great when he doesn't is relatively small, but those chances are a lot higher when any one of four skaters have the potential to do so.

    He's made that combo mistake in the past, so I don't think that can be entirely blamed on Kathy Johnson. I also get that a coaching relationship needs to be about more than just jumps, and that trust and a certain degree of understanding need to be there. A primary tech coach that he doesn't feel comfortable with could be seriously detrimental, especially since Patrick seems to be going through tough times confidence-wise right now.

    However, while Kathy isn't necessarily doing all that much damage, she's not in a position to add to his capabilities. His tech content has been stagnant for two seasons now, and Patrick needs to be better than he's ever been to stay on top. I agree that he doesn't seem to have a plan for Sochi, and he doesn't have much time left. If I could give coaches GOE she'd be a 0 for me; but at this point Patrick needs a +2 or +3.

  5. #20
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,096
    Please don't include unsourced rumors / gossip. Gossip needs a link to a decent news source; then it's not gossip, it's news. One post was edited on this thread, and one unapproved because of unsourced rumors about Patrick's reason for choosing Kathy Johnson as his coach.

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,351
    It seems to me people see problems according to expectations and preconceptions in this case.

    Could the expectation be too high because Patrick has been winning just about every competition handily the last two years, such that his podium finishes at every ISU event so far this season is deemed a great failure and regression? Wouldn't a retreat of his trajectory more to be reasonably expected than a continued unprecedented winning streak of every event in sight?

    There is a preconception and disapproval that his current coach, Kathy Johnson, is unqualified and totally unsuitable for a world champion and OGM aspirant because of her unconventional credentials. In addition, Patrick's dating her daughter automatically creates assumptions of his mental state regarding his coaching situation. I don't presume to know the facts but I remember when Patrick switched to Christy Krall, an unknown part-time specialty coach, he immediately had a "disastrous" Olympic showing, followed by the infamous 4 falls per competition "scandals". There were a lot of "discussions" of his problems but no outrage and focus on bad coaching and stupid decisions by Patrick.

    Again, I don't pretend to know the problems and solutions. Maybe I don't see as big a problem as most do but a necessary learning curve/progress and a natural sequence of drawing back before a possible leap or the launching of a new cycle. If indeed he proceeds from here to greater success, then I see a pattern repeated as set in 2010/11. If Patrick realizes himself what doesn't work and what else he needs, then I believe he will get himself the help he needs. He is surrounded by people he trusts who know and care about him so he will get proper counsel. I will wait to observe what will unfold. However, I do believe a person has to know himself and follow his heart and passion to be great.

  7. #22
    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    208
    Patrick is dating Kathy's daughter, Tess. Though he does say that he started dating her after taking Kathy as his coach. So his reason for taking Kathy as a coach is genuine for improving his artistry but he is most likely (in my opinion) reluctant to do anything to change his coaching relationship due to his personal relationships with her daughter. So again, I do think he just needs to sit down during the holidays and reevaluate his decision by prioritizing his goals and what he wants out of his skating career. Now that we are half way through the season, he's seen what his competitors are bringing to the table and he needs to see what he can do to move forward and not let others surpass him. I do agree that the big factor is others are playing catch up to him at a very fast speed and if he is continuing like this, it's only a matter of time before the positions are switched and he's the one playing catch up.

    I think this is pretty much what he needs to do at this point.

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...-to-do-dimanno
    Last edited by starryxskies; 12-19-2012 at 05:03 PM.

  8. #23
    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    208
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    There is a preconception and disapproval that his current coach, Kathy Johnson, is unqualified and totally unsuitable for a world champion and OGM aspirant because of her unconventional credentials. In addition, Patrick's dating her daughter automatically creates assumptions of his mental state regarding his coaching situation. I don't presume to know the facts but I remember when Patrick switched to Christy Krall, an unknown part-time specialty coach, he immediately had a "disastrous" Olympic showing, followed by the infamous 4 falls per competition "scandals". There were a lot of "discussions" of his problems but no outrage and focus on bad coaching and stupid decisions by Patrick.
    I think the difference is that with Christy, we can at least see that he had a good training team behind him. We can't say he's not reaching his potential because he has a good team backing him up, doing the best they can to improve his abilities.

    With Kathy, he's lacking the complete team package and here's where the fans are pointing fingers because he's not reaching the potential he could be reaching. Here's where the "what ifs" apply. ie. If he had a better and more experienced coach, he could be progressing and pushing his limits with his abilities.

  9. #24
    “Our blade takes us in the most amazing places.” skatingfan4ever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    It seems to me people see problems according to expectations and preconceptions in this case.

    Could the expectation be too high because Patrick has been winning just about every competition handily the last two years, such that his podium finishes at every ISU event so far this season is deemed a great failure and regression? Wouldn't a retreat of his trajectory more to be reasonably expected than a continued unprecedented winning streak of every event in sight?

    There is a preconception and disapproval that his current coach, Kathy Johnson, is unqualified and totally unsuitable for a world champion and OGM aspirant because of her unconventional credentials. In addition, Patrick's dating her daughter automatically creates assumptions of his mental state regarding his coaching situation. I don't presume to know the facts but I remember when Patrick switched to Christy Krall, an unknown part-time specialty coach, he immediately had a "disastrous" Olympic showing, followed by the infamous 4 falls per competition "scandals". There were a lot of "discussions" of his problems but no outrage and focus on bad coaching and stupid decisions by Patrick.

    Again, I don't pretend to know the problems and solutions. Maybe I don't see as big a problem as most do but a necessary learning curve/progress and a natural sequence of drawing back before a possible leap or the launching of a new cycle. If indeed he proceeds from here to greater success, then I see a pattern repeated as set in 2010/11. If Patrick realizes himself what doesn't work and what else he needs, then I believe he will get himself the help he needs. He is surrounded by people he trusts who know and care about him so he will get proper counsel. I will wait to observe what will unfold. However, I do believe a person has to know himself and follow his heart and passion to be great.
    I agree with this post. I know Patrick has been winning everything for the last two seasons, but I wouldn't call medaling at both GP events and the GPF this season a failure or a disaster. I am a huge fan of Patrick's skating, but part of me hopes he doesn't win worlds this year, just to take a bit of the pressure off for Sochi. Most other skaters would consider a gold, silver, and bronze in the GP a respectable showing. It's just that because Patrick has been so dominant, we're disappointed when he comes back to earth. My view is that Patrick can do whatever he chooses about his coaching situation and the results will fall where they may. Besides, he can't control how other skaters will skate or what the judges' marks will be, so his road to the OGM is only partially in his control anyway. I'm just grateful to have been able to watch his skating over the years.

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,351
    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    I think the difference is that with Christy, we can at least see that he had a good training team behind him. We can't say he's not reaching his potential because he has a good team backing him up, doing the best they can to improve his abilities.

    With Kathy, he's lacking the complete team package and here's where the fans are pointing fingers because he's not reaching the potential he could be reaching. Here's where the "what ifs" apply. ie. If he had a better and more experienced coach, he could be progressing and pushing his limits with his abilities.
    That's what I mean by preconception. In each case, we were/are not seeing the eventual result or the potential reached yet. Because of the preconception/judgement, people are pointing fingers and not looking at other possible causes, development or eventuality. This is like police focusing on convicting a particular suspect that they overlook other possibilities.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,908
    I think we should simply take Patrick at his word. He made a conscious decision this year to put technical improvements on the back burner and work on elevating his artistic expression. This he has done.

    Next year we will see if he can put it all together and zoom out in front of the pack again. Will his career turn out to be a parabola peaking in 2010-2011, or an amplified sine wave dipping in season only to soar to ever loftier heights?

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Next year we will see if he can put it all together and zoom out in front of the pack again. Will his career turn out to be a parabola peaking in 2010-2011, or an amplified sine wave dipping in season only to soar to ever loftier heights?
    appropriate references

  13. #28
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    190
    Good discussion. Of course, as fans we don't know the entire support team that works behind the scenes. Patrick is an exceptional skater and I think we all enjoy his skating. Obviously it always easier to criticize and Chan has his fair share of detractors. As a fan of athletics, I think it would be naive to say that basically one year away from the Olympics that Chan would not evaluate his progress to date. If he's happy with his progression then I am fine with it. I just don't believe at this point that a 21 year old athlete gets the entire picture. And what you want to establish is consistency and confidence.

    ETA: In addition, it will be interesting if Chan keeps the same LP for next year....
    Last edited by heyhey; 12-19-2012 at 07:48 PM.

  14. #29
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    It depends on what perspective you're asking from.

    If Chan learns and grows as a skater and human being; gains new commitment to a sport he excels at and enjoys the process he's undertaking, I don't think we can say it was the wrong decision. We don't have to live in his shoes. Remember, he was having major issues about his time in the sport - he was thinking retirement before Vancouver (after the season) and before Nice he was again contemplating his future in the sport (both he and Krall have said this). If working with Johnson as his lead coach provides this, then I can't fault it.

    As a fan who actually preferred Aranjuez to Boheme and Exilados to Elegy, I don't find him more artistic this year at all, though I do see him putting more effort into being more artistic.

    As someone rooting for him to win Worlds 2013 and Olympics 2014, I think I'm gonna stay worried until he does so. In many respects, Patrick is doing the opposite of what the field did when he improved in the 10/11 season. When they guy who doesn't need a quad to win has a quad, you'd better have one too. Now those guys are going for two quads and two triple axels, or three quads and a triple axel. They're just as COP saavy in terms of jump layout. They've added the transitions. Level four steps are easy now (seriously, we went from three men a competition to something junior pairs can do.) Someone like Fernandez can out level Chan on spins (and Fernandez is not a strong spinner). I think he's giving up a lot.

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    443
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    It depends on what perspective you're asking from.

    If Chan learns and grows as a skater and human being; gains new commitment to a sport he excels at and enjoys the process he's undertaking, I don't think we can say it was the wrong decision. We don't have to live in his shoes. Remember, he was having major issues about his time in the sport - he was thinking retirement before Vancouver (after the season) and before Nice he was again contemplating his future in the sport (both he and Krall have said this). If working with Johnson as his lead coach provides this, then I can't fault it.
    ^ This! I was thinking about Patrick and Krall's statements regarding his having a rough few months prior to World's where he was almost contemplating quitting. They didn't elaborate, but he seemed really really down (and maybe even bored....?). If this is what it took to keep him in the game, then so be it, I'm glad he stuck it out. Maybe we won't see the benefits he reaps from this decision until next year.......or maybe he'll add a full time technical coach as well if he decides. I wish him all the best and hope that he can continue to grow and improve on his way to Sochi.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-20-2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: fix quotation html

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •