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Thread: Highest scores ever recorded - Ladies

  1. #16
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Ok, it's Christmas day!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Slkutskaya? There is Sasha Cohen in 10th place with her 2006 Nationals score, Slutskaya's best ever (130.58) is not in my list, maybe you were watching the international records list that froh1981 posted...
    Yes, that's the list I was referring to. Sorry I was unclear. It's nice to see both Slutskaya and Cohen in with the greats of today, isn't it?

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    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    I actually think that the ISU list is easier to discuss because I find that nats tend to be slightly inflated and/or result depend on who the federation likes that season and other non-on-the-ice stuff. (Not that other comps don't have it too, but it's more pronounced at nats)

    It's too bad that Michelle didn't really do COP b/c I would've liked to see her on the list.

  4. #19
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    I actually think that the ISU list is easier to discuss because I find that nats tend to be slightly inflated and/or result depend on who the federation likes that season and other non-on-the-ice stuff. (Not that other comps don't have it too, but it's more pronounced at nats)

    It's too bad that Michelle didn't really do COP b/c I would've liked to see her on the list.
    I don't think she would have been on the list: she was the best 6.0 lady skater ever, she was just perfect for the 6.0, but her spins would have always been level 1 or 2 (she actually didn't have great spins considering even the 6.0 standard!): the "difficult variations" she could perform were not a lot, and she had done the same spins for ages, changing your elements completely at 25 would have been too much even for the Kween, I think; then, her jumps would have seldom received +2 or +3, only her loop or salchow maybe, because her lutz and flip didn't have take off edges as clean as the CoP requires; then, her TR and CH marks would have been probably not so high, watching her Tosca/Bolero: they are beautiful programs (especially the first one!), but they didn't have a lot of transitions, and the choreographies were not CoP friendly, I'm afraid to say...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I don't think she would have been on the list: she was the best 6.0 lady skater ever, she was just perfect for the 6.0, but her spins would have always been level 1 or 2 (she actually didn't have great spins considering even the 6.0 standard!): the "difficult variations" she could perform were not a lot, and she had done the same spins for ages, changing your elements completely at 25 would have been too much even for the Kween, I think; then, her jumps would have seldom received +2 or +3, only her loop or salchow maybe, because her lutz and flip didn't have take off edges as clean as the CoP requires; then, her TR and CH marks would have been probably not so high, watching her Tosca/Bolero: they are beautiful programs (especially the first one!), but they didn't have a lot of transitions, and the choreographies were not CoP friendly, I'm afraid to say...
    But that's what I mean by Michelle didn't really do COP. She trained for the 6.0 system all her life, so of course, with her work & talent, she was the best 6.0 lady.

    But if she'd trained for COP all her life, she would've been a great COP lady. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my comment.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    But that's what I mean by Michelle didn't really do COP. She trained for the 6.0 system all her life, so of course, with her work & talent, she was the best 6.0 lady.

    But if she'd trained for COP all her life, she would've been a great COP lady. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my comment.
    I too think she could have excelled at COP, simply because she was able to adapt herself to whatever was required of her over the 10 years she was at the highest levels of the sport. I'm glad she wasn't a COP skater though because I enjoy going back and watching great 6.0 programs more than I do great COP programs. My favorites from Michelle, Midori, G&G, and Boitano would have looked much different under COP.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I don't think she would have been on the list: she was the best 6.0 lady skater ever, she was just perfect for the 6.0, but her spins would have always been level 1 or 2 (she actually didn't have great spins considering even the 6.0 standard!): the "difficult variations" she could perform were not a lot, and she had done the same spins for ages, changing your elements completely at 25 would have been too much even for the Kween, I think;
    At various points in her actual 6.0 career, Kwan showed enough spin variations to suggest that, at her physical peak, she would have been able to put them together in different combinations to achieve a few level 3 spins, if not level 4, depending what year's rules we're talking about. If she had grown up with IJS and started training things like back flexibility and edge changes all along, no doubt she would have been able to achieve more features than those we saw from her in actual programs.

    Still, she was not naturally extremely flexible nor a particularly fast spinner, so it might have been hard for her to add multiple features and maintain high quality in the same spin. Maybe she would have had to make choices between level 3/4 with 0 or -1 GOE vs. level 1/2 with +1 GOE. If this had been an issue at the peak of her career, no doubt her choice of strategy would have influenced the direction that other skaters chose to take. (Slutskaya and Cohen being more flexible and faster spinners at the top levels in the early years of IJS no doubt had their own influence.)

    then, her jumps would have seldom received +2 or +3, only her loop or salchow maybe, because her lutz and flip didn't have take off edges as clean as the CoP requires;
    And her double axel could have gotten the most pluses, especially in her early/mid-teens.

    then, her TR and CH marks would have been probably not so high, watching her Tosca/Bolero: they are beautiful programs (especially the first one!), but they didn't have a lot of transitions, and the choreographies were not CoP friendly, I'm afraid to say...
    Again, if she had been designing her programs to win, at the points in her career when winning was well within her reach, she would have emphasized the qualities that the rules and judging trends told her what would be rewarded. E.g., it seemed that after about 2000 she reduced the complexity of her programs because she believed that she needed to maintain more speed throughout the program to compete with a superfast skater like Slutskaya. If there had been clear places to reward transitions and complex choreography, Kwan might have been rewarded enough there to encourage her to make a different choice.

    We'll never know, because the rules didn't change until she was at the end of her career struggling with injury. But I have no doubt that Kwan would have found ways to win approximately as often as she actually did, under different rules, during the period when she was at her peak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    But if she'd trained for COP all her life, she would've been a great COP lady. Sorry I wasn't more clear in my comment.
    Exactly.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I don't think she would have been on the list: she was the best 6.0 lady skater ever, she was just perfect for the 6.0, but her spins would have always been level 1 or 2 (she actually didn't have great spins considering even the 6.0 standard!): the "difficult variations" she could perform were not a lot, and she had done the same spins for ages, changing your elements completely at 25 would have been too much even for the Kween, I think; then, her jumps would have seldom received +2 or +3, only her loop or salchow maybe, because her lutz and flip didn't have take off edges as clean as the CoP requires; then, her TR and CH marks would have been probably not so high, watching her Tosca/Bolero: they are beautiful programs (especially the first one!), but they didn't have a lot of transitions, and the choreographies were not CoP friendly, I'm afraid to say...
    You cant really say that skaters who only really competed under 6.0 ( though kwan did compete maybe once (?) under cop would not have been good cop skaters, if there had been any reason to do alot of difficult variations Im sure a skater of her calibre would have been perfectly capable, she was probably able to do many difficult spin variarions in practice but there was no incentive to do them in competition. also there are many skaters who compete under cop who are not good spinners ( joubert, KVDP, flatt) who still manage to get high levels. I remember back when I competed ( in 6.0) my friends and I would always practice spins which we thought looked cool, just for that reason, I dont remember ever competing with any of them because there was no need ( and I was not exactly lucinda ruh )

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    It will be hard to compare score by score since there had been changes in rules and base points for elements and jumps. Both Irina and Sasha was during early COP periods. When Sasha had her 130+ score, her PCS was like 68+ something. Not sure how many triples she landed. Also in 2005 World Irina had 130+ score and that was one of her jump not got credited as she did three 3Lo and zayet out the rule. Had she replace that with simple 3T, she would have score close to 135ish.

    I say COP score for lady was pretty much max out at Winter olympic where skater are allows to repeat three 2A and GOE was not average out to reflect the base value. So you can still have massive +GOE for simple jump like 2T etc.

    After 2010, the spiral was taken out in SP and 2A was reduce back to 3.3. And also spiral only given one level in LP so, for skater like Miki who had highest score after 2010 so far can potentially add 4-5 points to her record.

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    I don't think we'll ever see 150 score again, but Yuna can def crack 140 again. And if Adelina and Tuk can skates to their potential, and with better improve PCS and maybe some Sochi bonus they can def crack 130+ score.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I don't think she would have been on the list: she was the best 6.0 lady skater ever, she was just perfect for the 6.0, but her spins would have always been level 1 or 2 (she actually didn't have great spins considering even the 6.0 standard!): the "difficult variations" she could perform were not a lot, and she had done the same spins for ages, changing your elements completely at 25 would have been too much even for the Kween, I think; then, her jumps would have seldom received +2 or +3, only her loop or salchow maybe, because her lutz and flip didn't have take off edges as clean as the CoP requires; then, her TR and CH marks would have been probably not so high, watching her Tosca/Bolero: they are beautiful programs (especially the first one!), but they didn't have a lot of transitions, and the choreographies were not CoP friendly, I'm afraid to say...
    I think if Michelle had grown up with CoP--like we're seeing with Yuzuru Hanyu and Julia Lipinskaya now-- it might've been a different case. An example would be that I remember Michelle had done a 2A+2T in her LP during 1994-1995 season (when she was 13/14 years old), which could very well have been upgraded to a 2A+3T if she felt she needed to. But you're right, she was a 6.0 skater through and through (but she was darn good at it).

  12. #27
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Michele did compete under COP at her last World's. She finished in 4th place .37 pts off the podium, which was also her last international competition.

    We can only presume that she had COP friendly programs for 2006 since the USFSA aproved her for the Olympic team.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    Michele did compete under COP at her last World's. She finished in 4th place .37 pts off the podium, which was also her last international competition.

    We can only presume that she had COP friendly programs for 2006 since the USFSA aproved her for the Olympic team.
    This is true, but it's really nowhere near accurate to base a skater on the results of a single event. The "downfall", so to speak, of her at 2005 Worlds was her reluctance to compete at earlier GP events, which lead to her being way unfamiliar with CoP.

    (Side note: I didn't really like "Carmina Burana" either.)
    Last edited by aftertherain; 12-26-2012 at 06:01 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    Michele did compete under COP at her last World's. She finished in 4th place .37 pts off the podium, which was also her last international competition.

    We can only presume that she had COP friendly programs for 2006 since the USFSA aproved her for the Olympic team.
    I know I've had to mention this before, but one of the officials after the test skate did say she had level 3/4 spins and another said she could potentially win the games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    Michele did compete under COP at her last World's. She finished in 4th place .37 pts off the podium, which was also her last international competition.

    We can only presume that she had COP friendly programs for 2006 since the USFSA aproved her for the Olympic team.
    One doesnt have to presume anything based on her being named to the Olympic team. The 3rd U.S lady that year was a weak skater who had no chance of a top 5 finish (Emily Hughes) and who had skated very poorly at Nationals to make her spot. Kwan did not have to be a serious medal contender, the publicity and extra ratings alone were enough reason to send her, and no matter what shape she was in she was likely to finish higher than Hughes anyway (Hughes finished much higher than anyone expected with her 7th place).

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